[0762]

I will be amazed if that kinda Tory majority does materialise because, in reality, we'd be witnessing a portion of the English population that would be endorsing a fascist bunch of Tories who really have no regard for people at all and are obsessed with their own RW ideology and party politics in a political party that is "fractured" anyway. WHAT A CHOICE AND, AS AMELIA PREVIOUSLY COMMENTED: GOD HELP US!!! In England it is a choice of two terribly "lightweight" politicians who are not true leaders of people or nations and that is a fact and it is a sorry reflection of the state of Westminster politics since that whole Brexit fiasco was stupidly brokered in 2016 by that selfish idiot of a previous Tory PM, David Cameron. I notice Corbyn now promising to "right a wrong" re the pension penalty imposed on all those disaffected WASPI women but his govt financial commitment would be £58B!!!?

[Amelia Chaffinch]

You know all this is causing such division. I put divisive comments on myself yesterday and got rid of them when I realised I was being dragged into the resentment that is everywhere at the moment. There is a toxic atmosphere that is nothing like I have seen before. It's worrying.

[0762]

And remember it is still only Sunday 24 November! Watch the last 10 days of this election campaign and compare that period with this current toxic one. I think desperation, previously described by Jim in another thread, is the key word where big political jobs will be "on the line" and it will be poisonous and "not in keeping" with a normally blissful festive "run in" towards Xmas. This upcoming election result will certainly affect/anger millions of people in this country, one way or the other, and it will not be a "unifier" of people as being shamelessly suggested by politicians like Johnson who knows only too well that the polarised demographic doesn't point towards unity!!!

[spireitematt]

Latest forecasts suggest a Tory majority of around 50.

I worked out the polls and I got a Tory majority between 40-70. So a majority of 50 is around about right.

[0762]

The part of this current demographic that really intrigues me is the "oldie vote" which a lotta people in England (and in Scotland after the 2014 Scot referendum disappointment!) from lower age groups really resented "with a passion" and wondered why this particular group of people had "so much of a sway" (+ a common fixation on extreme views re issues such as Brexit, the future of the welfare state, degradation of the NHS etc etc) on a crucial election result when it was proved later on that there was such an unhealthy % contribution from these people. IMO one of the reasons why this was the case was simply that most of this "oldie group" always vote in a general election. In order to balance that out, a lot more "other voters", esp from the middle ground of voters who are either not sure or some would even "spoil" a voting paper due to sheer apathy for the electoral system, must "show up" and vote!!! Apparently there are still 9 million people who have not registered to vote in England and of the millions who have registered, many millions will not enter a voting booth anyway. Even in Scotland, the turnout since 1997 (devolution year) for Westminster elections has been greater than 60% (and 71% in the year that Cameron became PM) and emphasis must be placed on the fact that Scotland had become, Indyref apart, accustomed to the politics of a truncated electorate: those who vote are more affluent, middle-class and older than the electorate overall, and non-voters are poorer and younger. IMO this has consequences for our political debate and the choices politicians feel they can make. However, the Scot independence debate/dimension has "come to the fore" and it will be interesting to note how significant an effect, if any, this group of people will have on the Scottish vote as the "mood" has gradually changed and most Scots regard a horrible Old Etonian impostor like Johnson to be totally unelectable and another addition to add to the list of British PMs who the majority of the Scot electorate did not like, didn't fancy their divisive RW politics and consequently never voted for them AGAIN. Lastly, I just wanna add that a forecast result of a Tory majority of 50 does not reflect the polarised state of the country and I still maintain that there is a "sane, moderate middle ground vote" in England that could still ensure this election is much closer than many people think otherwise. I'd suggest that many of these people just don't know who to vote for, they are undecided, such is the great predicament that is so self-evident in England. Not so in Scotland where it is a case of guessing how many hypocritical Tory and Labour unionists we are gonna "slaughter" up here - they are so full of utter shit/disrespect/deceit and have been well sussed out by most Scots who await the next phase of their poisonous unionist media shit as it becomes apparent that some of these unionist parties are actually allied to each other in certain Scot constituencies, a case of WTF!!!???

[hibeejim21]

The English are just crazed about Brexit, a lot of them really do think the land of milk and honey will appear when we get rid of the oppressive European yoke. Its become almost a matter of patriotism to them and corbyn is not perceived as being very patriotic.

The labour leave seats will vote tory, as Corbyn always feared they would if he offered another vote. It makes their path to even a minority gov all the more unlikely.

[spireitematt]

The part of this current demographic that really intrigues me is the "oldie vote" which a lotta people in England (and in Scotland after the 2014 Scot referendum disappointment!) from lower age groups really resented "with a passion" and wondered why this particular group of people had "so much of a sway" (+ a common fixation on extreme views re issues such as Brexit, the future of the welfare state, degradation of the NHS etc etc) on a crucial election result when it was proved later on that there was such an unhealthy % contribution from these people. IMO one of the reasons why this was the case was simply that most of this "oldie group" always vote in a general election. In order to balance that out, a lot more "other voters", esp from the middle ground of voters who are either not sure or some would even "spoil" a voting paper due to sheer apathy for the electoral system, must "show up" and vote!!! Apparently there are still 9 million people who have not registered to vote in England and of the millions who have registered, many millions will not enter a voting booth anyway. Even in Scotland, the turnout since 1997 (devolution year) for Westminster elections has been greater than 60% (and 71% in the year that Cameron became PM) and emphasis must be placed on the fact that Scotland had become, Indyref apart, accustomed to the politics of a truncated electorate: those who vote are more affluent, middle-class and older than the electorate overall, and non-voters are poorer and younger. IMO this has consequences for our political debate and the choices politicians feel they can make. However, the Scot independence debate/dimension has "come to the fore" and it will be interesting to note how significant an effect, if any, this group of people will have on the Scottish vote as the "mood" has gradually changed and most Scots regard a horrible Old Etonian impostor like Johnson to be totally unelectable and another addition to add to the list of British PMs who the majority of the Scot electorate did not like, didn't fancy their divisive RW politics and consequently never voted for them AGAIN. Lastly, I just wanna add that a forecast result of a Tory majority of 50 does not reflect the polarised state of the country and I still maintain that there is a "sane, moderate middle ground vote" in England that could still ensure this election is much closer than many people think otherwise. I'd suggest that many of these people just don't know who to vote for, they are undecided, such is the great predicament that is so self-evident in England. Not so in Scotland where it is a case of guessing how many hypocritical Tory and Labour unionists we are gonna "slaughter" up here - they are so full of utter shit/disrespect/deceit and have been well sussed out by most Scots who await the next phase of their poisonous unionist media shit as it becomes apparent that some of these unionist parties are actually allied to each other in certain Scot constituencies, a case of WTF!!!???

You are always going on about England and your rhetoric comes across as Anti-English. You talk about how Leavers are so obsessed with Brexit and put it ahead of anything else but you are so obsessed with Scottish independence. I honestly believe the SNP don't want to get rid of the Tories but to keep them there so it boosts their argument for an independent Scotland. It's sort of saying well we don't want the Tories but everyone else can have them, it's the I'm alright Jack attitude. Also you do realise if or when Scotland get independence you won't have the SNP in power forever!

[hibeejim21]

An independent Scotland would still need England and vice versa, that's why I'd rather our neighbours were in a decent state politically and economically. It makes no sense otherwise. Having someone like Boris and the Brexit crew running things is going to only lead to chaos and further division - and that's because its part of their political strategy (like trump)

And you are right matt - in an independent Scotland labour would stand a great chance of government if they got their shit together. Thats why we don't understand them still after all that's happened trying to do the tories dirty work.

Its a great shame.

[0762]

I couldn't agree more re these comments and Matt I just wanna say that I am not anti-English and refute that insinuation as I have done previously when, oddly enough, you've come out with the same shit before!!! I previously lived in England with lotsa good contacts, my wife is from Kent and my father-in-law is originally from London and ex-navy - THEY ALL WANT SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE NOW AS DO ALL MY FAMILY MEMBERS!!! The theme of my criticisms centres on the amazing transformation (for the worst!) of politics and attitudes IN CERTAIN REGIONS OF ENGLAND AND INSIDE WESTMINSTER since Cameron's PM time and possibly even before that during Blair's period of governance! The antics in England and in Westminster politics have been unacceptably poisonous for quite a long time. The Scot position north of Hadrian's Wall is different and that is a fact although lotsa people are as concerned re the outcome of this General Election and the destabilising effect it could have on the country - no different from Amelia's previous genuine concerns but she is resident in England and I can still empathise with her position and others with huge concerns that could affect the future prospects of them and others who wish to see progressive governance and a push towards a fair society - a huge challenge for any true prospective govt! Jim is "spot on" re a future government in Scotland possibly evolving beyond the SNP but at the current time IMO every unionist political party up here is absolutely obsessed with an affiliation to the Union and their mandatory obligation to align themselves with the diktat from said parent political party in England with a real "disconnect" from Scot public opinion to the point of being absolutely disrespectful with ridiculous misrepresentations and lies. The SNP hierarchy and govt don't do that and their mandate is absolutely clear to a Scottish electorate that knows what it is voting for and who best represents Scottish interests. Lastly, as Jim iterated in the previous thread, it is important to Scottish interests, and Europe for that matter, to see some kinda stabilisation finally prevail in English politics and the macro economic structure of the country but England (not being racist(????) about this at all btw) still seems to be inexorably polarised by all the shit of the day, the history of which has been debated often enough on this Sb board and others, and I won't bother with repetition on the subject of how David Cameron "let the genie out of the bottle" and the subsequent recriminations where IMO the "damage" will last for years.

This is getting really worrying now. The Tories have doctored an interview from 3rd October with Jess Phillips talking about manifestos and the Tories are trying to say that it was done today. They've also gone and created a website called https://www.labourmanifesto.co.uk/# and they have gone top of the search list on Google to sort of pretend that they are the Labour party and that's the website to read the Labour manifesto.

Following on from such unscrupulous practise by the Tories, I notice the bbc is now "under fire" again in some intense debates on Twitter as it has been discovered that they "doctored" the bbc leaders' footage on later bbc news reports in order to miss out the laughing audience when Johnson mentioned how trustworthy he was. Their excuse was that they wanted to "shorten the footage" but, as pointed out by many critics of the bbc, they conveniently do this to favour one political group i.e. the Tories!!! So consistent and irritating and yet the bbc hierarchy occasionally refer to their "impartiality" being paramount- their impudence is breathtaking, what a joke, it is not objective and they should at least be reported to OFCOM!! Meanwhile I notice that on the day before the deadline date to register to vote, it has been confirmed that 70% of voters who are aged 18-24 years have not registered - just confirms what I said in a previous thread re the significance of the "oldie vote" and the extreme views that appear to predominate within that group of people!!! IMO as said in many a previous thread - we should have a mandatory vote like practised in the likes of Australia but it will never be introduced because the status quo suits political parties like the Tories in an electoral system that is not "fit for purpose" and is now only practised in three countries in Europe incl the UK!!

[spireitematt]

I couldn't agree more re these comments and Matt I just wanna say that I am not anti-English and refute that insinuation as I have done previously when, oddly enough, you've come out with the same shit before!!! I previously lived in England with lotsa good contacts, my wife is from Kent and my father-in-law is originally from London and ex-navy - THEY ALL WANT SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE NOW AS DO ALL MY FAMILY MEMBERS!!! The theme of my criticisms centres on the amazing transformation (for the worst!) of politics and attitudes IN CERTAIN REGIONS OF ENGLAND AND INSIDE WESTMINSTER since Cameron's PM time and possibly even before that during Blair's period of governance! The antics in England and in Westminster politics have been unacceptably poisonous for quite a long time. The Scot position north of Hadrian's Wall is different and that is a fact although lotsa people are as concerned re the outcome of this General Election and the destabilising effect it could have on the country - no different from Amelia's previous genuine concerns but she is resident in England and I can still empathise with her position and others with huge concerns that could affect the future prospects of them and others who wish to see progressive governance and a push towards a fair society - a huge challenge for any true prospective govt! Jim is "spot on" re a future government in Scotland possibly evolving beyond the SNP but at the current time IMO every unionist political party up here is absolutely obsessed with an affiliation to the Union and their mandatory obligation to align themselves with the diktat from said parent political party in England with a real "disconnect" from Scot public opinion to the point of being absolutely disrespectful with ridiculous misrepresentations and lies. The SNP hierarchy and govt don't do that and their mandate is absolutely clear to a Scottish electorate that knows what it is voting for and who best represents Scottish interests. Lastly, as Jim iterated in the previous thread, it is important to Scottish interests, and Europe for that matter, to see some kinda stabilisation finally prevail in English politics and the macro economic structure of the country but England (not being racist(????) about this at all btw) still seems to be inexorably polarised by all the shit of the day, the history of which has been debated often enough on this Sb board and others, and I won't bother with repetition on the subject of how David Cameron "let the genie out of the bottle" and the subsequent recriminations where IMO the "damage" will last for years.

I hold my hands up and I apologise for insinuating that you are Anti-English.