[0762]

That is the startling figure that most reputable political analysts refer to when one listens to many of the political sound bites that are uttered from the mouths of people who are intent on "getting their way at all cost" to activate Brexit "in the name of the people" OR to force "the will of the people"!! Add the fact that the three devolved countries of the UK do not share that Brexit vision either!!! We've listened to this shit for well over 3 years and it has become even more extreme from various English RW sources to literally subvert a democratic parliamentary process, in one case even killing an innocent Labour MP (albeit by a political RW extremist/nut case) called Jo Cox (and yes, the antagonistic language from various MPs and others was a factor - that murder "shut them up" for a wee while eh!!), and then we had the mass intimidation of people in various forms and the subsequent polarisation of the country that will never be reversed by the current fascist UK Tory govt of Johnson and his other undemocratic right-wing shit heids who actually don't give a sook for anybody but themselves and their own narrow, divisive political ideologies. A case of f### democracy and we'll shut down parliament with the role of the Queen in this charade rightly being questioned by millions of people throughout the country!!! What the f### is going on in a country that not that long ago was not perfect but still "ticking over" regardless but IMO with the wrong British govt in place and the political ideologies and electoral system so "out of place" and outdated for a UK that was supposed to be "pushing on" positively into the 21st century. Also reflect back to the likes of Germany in 1932 when Hitler and Goebbels decided that democratic governance should be "ditched" and righteous RW authoritarian governance imposed for the good of the country!!! We couldn't even hang these murderous bastards as both committed suicide before we could drag them to Spandau Prison before a quick trial and subsequent execution for crimes against humanity!!! Look it up, Google it, and be afraid!!! Government and true democratic values are being hijacked "under our noses" and it should be challenged - IT WILL BE CHALLENGED IN THE TRUE NAME OF DEMOCRACY!! IMO it is a "watershed moment" and I pray that common decency and appropriate action by decent honourable people prevails against "forces of evil" that I have never seen before on this island in my life time - Thatcher's period of rule, albeit horrible, will not compare!!
I've added Gina Miller's swift move through the Supreme Court to counter the disgraceful suspension of parliament and it looks like she and her legal team were well prepared for this moment as were Scottish opponents who are active in the Edinburgh Court of Session. Note Gina Miller was another individual subjected to months n months of death threats and abuse from the same kinda extreme individuals who want Brexit to happen and that is totally unacceptable in a civilised society but unfortunately this country is "full of it" at the moment. I honestly believe there should be another referendum to formalise leaving or having the choice to remain - that should be a democratic right for every British citizen bearing in mind the enormity of what is being proposed. Sadly this democratic right is being suppressed by people who clearly do not want that referendum to happen and will stop it "at all cost" with any kinda rhetorical shit that they can dream up and even lie about if necessary!! The referendum vote of 2016 has been well n truly reversed and yet these RW imbeciles still wanna "push us over the Brexit" cliff on an old vote that represented only 36% of our population and was effectively a "split vote" anyway!!!!  It wasn't 70%-30%, it wasn't 65%35% - nothing like it - political skulduggery of the highest order and we should be challenging it BIG TIME!!!
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/an...spartandhp

[hibeejim21]

Moreover, Johnson isn't even sticking to the version of Brexit that was in the tory manifesto- he is instead pretending that 17.4 million people voted for No Deal. They didn't, he knows it and he is abusing the Constitution to avoid being held accountable for that blatant disregard for Parliament and democracy.

There is a real anger brewing in the country now, this is going to end really,really badly.

[St Charles Owl]

Your headline is very misleading and a manipulation of stats for the benefit of one position!!! Yes, only 36% voted to leave but conversely only 34.7% voted to remain, so its a non-argument.

What Jim says above is far more relevant, there is no way those who voted leave voted to leave without any sort of deal!! The position we find ourselves in was never even muted as a possibility and due to the subsequent proof that the leave campaign spun a bunch of lies during the run up to the vote there should be either a further vote over the deal on the table or a General Election.

[0762]

So 36% of our population get Brexit anyway Saint Charles Owl eh????? Btw it was not a deliberate manipulation so poo to another negative insinuation/accusation by you re a relevant insinuation about the number of people who can decide the fate of a nation i.e. the "first past the post mentality"!!!!! It is relevant to the outdated way that the whole thing has been done and yes, Jim's point is as valid re the massive deceptions that had been presented to the public and lets not forget the "shady money" or the destroyed boxes of data (removal filmed by various parties) used by Cambridge Analytica - data that was illegally used by Cambridge Analytica, a company that was funded by Steve Bannon!! There is so much evidence of corruption (I don't intend to exhaust the same regurgitated stuff that has been uttered often enough on different relevant OPs for over 3 years!!) in order to have a decent chance of Brexit winning the 2016 EU referendum that has never been formally challenged enough for obvious reasons when a govt has a significant faction within its ranks that wants to make it happen!!! It is not right!! Ignoring your criticism re manipulation, YOU KNOW THAT THIS IS NOT RIGHT AND IT NEVER WAS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING!!!
On that score, I think we are "singing from the same hymn sheet" and thank god for that!! Even my kids are talking about this crisis, something that never normally happens as well as various older neighbours who are alarmed at this affront - again these people never discuss this subject!! I believe "something big is gonna blow up", dunno what it is but it is definitely "coming to a head"!! As described in another thread - it is nightmare waiting to happen!!

[St Charles Owl]

0762, however you slice and dice the numbers, more people voted to leave than those who voted to remain. You can dress the numbers however you want but that is a fact. For me the result was far too close to form any sort of mandate for anyone to push forward with Brexit but that is where we find ourselves. Harking back to the number who voted is pointless, we are in a reality where a no deal is a real and likely possibility, its purely the no deal that needs to be stopped now, even the deal May got is far more palatable than no deal. Every effort needs to be made to prevent us crashing out of the EU, but I still cannot see enough from the politicians in opposition to the Tories to stop it at this stage.

[0762]

Another point I'd like to make is the fact that a referendum is actually an opinion poll that a government has every right to decide on accordingly but they must set the ground rules to the population before the event - this was sadly lacking in 2016 TBF about it, the organisation and setting up of this event was a disgrace as well as the poor representation of the remain population by a number of people incl Corbyn, who I'll never forgive re his pitiful, insincere representations during 2016! Now Switzerland is a great example of a country that runs referenda regularly down the years and they practise in this effective manner - unanimous referenda are seriously considered, close run affairs "chucked in the bin" and stick to the status quo. They are far more experienced through years n years of practise. The 2016 EU referendum was so full of money and vested interest as well as partisan and negative behaviour particularly in England, it was unreal!!

[spireitematt]

Another point I'd like to make is the fact that a referendum is actually an opinion poll that a government has every right to decide on accordingly but they must set the ground rules to the population before the event - this was sadly lacking in 2016 TBF about it, the organisation and setting up of this event was a disgrace as well as the poor representation of the remain population by a number of people incl Corbyn, who I'll never forgive re his pitiful, insincere representations during 2016! Now Switzerland is a great example of a country that runs referenda regularly down the years and they practise in this effective manner - unanimous referenda are seriously considered, close run affairs "chucked in the bin" and stick to the status quo. They are far more experienced through years n years of practise. The 2016 EU referendum was so full of money and vested interest as well as partisan and negative behaviour particularly in England, it was unreal!!

They did set the rules before the referendum took place they said whatever the decision and outcome that they would implement the result yet they are failing miserably to do that. No one voted in 2016 on how to leave the EU or if they wanted a deal or not, it was just Remain or Leave. It doesn't matter whether you voted Leave or Remain on the 23rd June 2016 the electorate didn't vote for Parliament to be suspended. Suspending Parliament isn't democratic and it's certainly not 'taking back control'. It's essentially a tinpot dictatorship.

The reason that Remain lost the referendum in 2016 is because they weren't working together as one. Cameron and Osborne didn't want to work with Corbyn and I very much doubt that Corbyn wanted to work with Cameron and Osborne, same goes for the Lib Dems. They were all running their own separate campaigns and rallies around the country. Then you had Major and Blair going around the country at events and also on the TV and radio saying the people should vote this way etc. You had Cameron and the Remain campaign using scaremongering tactics and trying to frighten people into voting Remain.

You mention that the EU referendum was so full of money and vested interest as well as partisan and negative behaviour particularly in England, Well what about the people who campaigned for Remain and their money and vested interests in Europe and people who worked for the EU and their pensions? It goes both ways.

I would say for the last 25-30 years that the British electorate have been very Eurosceptic and I think the big reason goes back to 1992 when Major signed the Maastricht treaty without giving the electorate a referendum vote then. The right wing media like the Telegraph, Mail and Express for the last 30 years have printed articles and stories which aren't factual correct. Does the EU need to reform? Yes it does, it needs to row back and let countries control their own social and economic problems while working together. The EU bureaucrats would love to move to a federal Europe if you let them but the people of Europe would be totally against it that's unless you are a Europhile or a Pro-Federalist.

[0762]

I disagree re your insinuation that the remain and leave campaigns went two ways but definitely not gonna cover "old ground" that has been re the same "opinions", counter opinions and platitudes time n time again ad nauseum. Also a good point re your reference to the media over the past 30 years that kept "spoon feeding" the same anti EU shit on and on and on for decades with the Rupert Murdoch press at the forefront of this one-sided nonsense - as though the historically poor governance of successive British governments somehow didn't matter and again I'm not gonna refer to reams n reams of British govt misdemeanours that this RW propaganda press conveniently ignored and slapped down as much blame as possible on the "nasty EU"!! I had older relatives, some now deceased, who were classic examples of being duped by some of these RW "rags" that call themselves newspapers until some of these deceptions/lies were explained a bit more clearly why they were happening and there were perfectly clear counter explanations i.e, DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT YOU READ IN RW NEWSPAPERS THAT HAVE THEIR OWN POLITICAL AGENDA AND THEIR REPORTERS ARE BEING PAID TO DO IT!!! I await Jim to add a lot more detail to the federalism argument etc, - all stuff that, as previously commented, has been repeated time n time again in OPs under "Abstract chat" and you can actually look it up. There is only so much one can talk about after over 3 years of listening to all the Brexiteer arguments about regaining sovereignty (btw not Scottish Sovereignty!!!), "getting back control" etc etc etc etc etc - now that line was always a laugh!! And there are many other repeat revelations of the "land of milk and honey" but there was never any substance attached to these assurances of greatness returning to the English, oops meant to say British Empire - pardon my sarcasm but they were "opinions" right enough!! Nothing "written on stone" but full of great hope although there are enough independently studied government papers (north and south of the border and in NI), some of them secret and hidden from public view, that provide an alarming picture of a very uncertain future. You can look them up and decide for yourself if it is actually "fake news", a common dismissive technique used by Trump and his cohorts for a long time!! A lotta of them are government stamped as authentic!! Maybe they are fake too because they don't suit the Brexit arguments eh!! I'm sure Saint Charles Owl will add a few additional comments to enlighten us further on such crass RW techniques to deflect away from glaring criticism that could damage reputations - well used "across the pond" by you know who!! Lastly lets hope none of us catch any nasty illness after Brexit possibly becomes reality as we may not get our medicine in time!! Maybe the qualified comments by NHS practitioners "on the ground" are fake as well (sic).

[hibeejim21]

The main criticism of the EU was that is was full of unelected figures and undemocratic ? Right ?

As Boris (unelected) prepares to shut down parliament and block any legislation that he doesn't like (undemocratic)

[0762]

Aye! Hypocrisy prevails at an alarming rate in the politics of Brexit England and that's a fact! Shame and hypocrisy definitely "go hand in hand" and have done for quite a while!!