[ritchiebaby]

Of course it's all a matter of opinion and it's my opinion that there are many Scots who "stupidly" voted for independence, much the same as UK voters who "stupidly" voted for Brexit.

And the SNP are also the party of austerity - they have effectively vetoed an increase in Council Tax for the past 9 years, because any Council daring to want to raise the tax would lose the subsidy available from the SNP Government. Unfortunately the subsidy is nowhere near enough and my local Council has shed jobs and services in the last few years to be able to balance the books.

I also firmly believe that Scotland is very capable of becoming independent, just that Nicola is not the person to take us there.

[hibeejim21]

I respect your opinion mate,and i agree to a point.

Not an SNP guy but i think sturgeon is a very talented politician (whatever that means)

[St Charles Owl]

The one thing I hate about politics these days is the notion that anyone who doesn't agree with someone else's opinion is simply labelled stupid or that the way they voted was stupid!! One of the things we should always thank is that we live in a society where we can vote how we want without undue pressure on us to do something we don't want to do. The advent of social media through gives a platform for those opposed to your opinion to be able to slag you off in terms that would never be acceptable face to face and often anonymously as well!! I didn't vote in either the Scottish Independence nor the Brexit referendum due to being ineligible for both but I had opinions on both of them, one result matched my opinion, but I don't go around slagging off those who disagreed or labeling them stupid. And believe me, the stuff we are seeing over here with the US Presidential race just makes my skin crawl from both sides with regards to the hatred they have for each other. What happened to reasoned debate and the free choice of opinion?? I am still waiting for anything of substance as regards policy from either Donald or Hillary, they just continue to slag each other off and their supporters do exactly the same!!

[0762]

One can disagree with an opinion with respect and that's what was said in previous threads. A reference and an anti reason was given re the Council Tax situation in Scotland! Well I'm an ex council official who worked within the operation for a long, long time and I'll immediately refer to the years of reduced finances to Scottish local authorities and indeed all local authorities in the UK!!! FACT!!! And before anyone starts flinging muck in the SNP gov's direction, just peruse the capital and revenue expenditure that is received from central govt. It's been consistently reduced/starved of 'healthy cash inflow for years/decades and I've been at the forefront observing how local authorities have to try and evenly distribute their annual expenditure effectively!!! Just look at the poor state of our roads alone and there's a reason for that failure!!! Billions of quid paid in tax by motorists annually and a small fraction of that money is ploughed in to the maintenance of our transport infrastructure!!! Council Tax is a 'hot potato' and IMO an intractable one - it has been that way for years even before devolution and the 'best solution' or holding a moratorium is again all down to opinion.
There's no doubt in my mind the 'real target' for criticism always was successive failed Westminster govts. Certain folk who target the Scottish gov, a gov that is governing on restricted budgets (and various other restrictions because we don't even have a minimum devomax status) wanna 'get real' on the subject and waken up!!! :down:
And by the way, I think we are very lucky to have a top politician and astute leader like Nicola Sturgeon who knows exactly what she's doing and is running our country under very difficult circumstances - something that many critics of Nicola, particularly political ones, conveniently ignore or omit from their conversations. For example Sturgeon v a 'lightweight/backdoor' PM called Theresa May? Absolutely no comparison in astuteness and reputation!! Be thankful Sturgeon is 100% with us, the Scottish people, and will do her best for us although she will never satisfy everyones' aspirations. But that's life!! :rolleyes:

[ritchiebaby]

I will agree that Sturgeon is a top politician, but I would say that it's easy preaching to the converted at your own party conference - and I fully understand that applies to all political parties. I can only hope that she realises she is walking a dangerous tightrope. She might gain 1% with her oratory, but at the same time sicken many of the middle ground voters and lose 5%.

[0762]

I don't think she is daft enough to 'fall into that trap'. I believe she is just preparing the ground where Scotland and it's interests as a progressive, outward and non-insular country are gonna be threatened/compromised by a right-wing Conservative govt at some stage of the abortive Brexit negotiations and that's where the 'fun' will really begin and Nicola will firmly drive home to many 'doubters' within the Scottish population that they were bl#### well wrong. I'd say that's the plan and It's a case of putting good money on a Tory govt botch up of the highest order, another one because they are good at botch ups esp on a losing hand called Brexit!! And this manoeuvre is not being fully orchestrated by Nicola anyway as she'll be expertly advised by a solid team of highly qualified people  who have been analysing all the implications of Brexit on the Scottish economy and all it's functions + the impact on the UK operations. IMO the SNP has not been static since that shock Brexit vote and they've been 'doing their homework' for quite a while!!

[hibeejim21]

the 'middle ground' changes nothing. The middle ground didn't bring the NHS or our social services.

Britain voted Brexit on the back of English votes. Scotland does not want that. So Sturgeon is setting out her stall and saying 'well if Westminster wants a hard Brexit we may well want to leave the Union.' It places may in a difficult position as a result.

Its not difficult to understand.

[0762]

I think Nicola 'is playing a blinder' TBF and it's noticeable that many of the vociferous political critics on the radio, tv etc are the usual pro union shameless suspects who we observed in 2014 or the 'other group of folk' who are simply terrified of the prospect of Scottish indy becoming reality - the bizarre negative insinuations, rhetoric and innuendo never cease to amaze me! Nicola has cleverly set up a series of tests for PM May from which the 'pass mark' will effectively give Scotland's interests some solid political substance post Brexit or if, as expected, the Tories fracture in disunity and embarrassment in a hard brexit position, the door will open for the Scottish public to seriously consider facing what Sturgeon has been highlighting from the very beginning when that ridiculous Brexit protest vote (the opposite of the favourable Scottish vote!!) finally amazed millions of people throughout the UK incl a huge proportion of parliamentarians and civil servants who were vehemently opposed to it and still privately regard it as a 'stupid' protest vote that should never have happened at all in a unified country called the United Kingdom!! We are clearly not unified at all and never have been for years!!

[ritchiebaby]

Jim - it's not difficult to understand. The middle ground will decide the result of any future Scottish Independence vote, not the vociferous nationalists, so any SNP plan should take that into consideration. From the reported headline policies it seems to me that there is an anti English/UK agenda in many of the SNP proposals.

0762 - the SNP lost the Scottish Independence vote in 2014 and they lost the UK wide EU vote in 2016 and all they can do is moan and threaten even more instability than we have at present. For all the SNP's delusions of their own importance in the UK, PM May will be negotiating the Brexit terms on behalf of the UK. If there is a rebellion against Brexit in Parliament, it will be the "hated" English Tories that will instigate it. Also, if my instincts are correct, PM May, as head of the UK Government will have the final decision on whether there will be another Scottish Referendum or not.

However this will be my last input meantime on this subject as we will obviously continue to disagree.

[St Charles Owl]

the 'middle ground' changes nothing. The middle ground didn't bring the NHS or our social services.

Britain voted Brexit on the back of English votes. Scotland does not want that. So Sturgeon is setting out her stall and saying 'well if Westminster wants a hard Brexit we may well want to leave the Union.' It places may in a difficult position as a result.

Its not difficult to understand.

While I get what you mean, the middle ground changes everything in so much as in general without the support of the middle ground then it becomes very difficult to win an election and put yourself in a position to change things.

Sturgeon is doing exactly what she should do. She is flexing the only muscle she really has, which is the Brexit vote showed the majority in Scotland want to stay in the EU, although equally the majority also showed they want to stay part of the UK!! It does throw up an interesting position going forward and maybe ultimately she will get her one true aim of another referendum to leave the UK should the Brexit deal not be in Scotland's favor in her opinion.