[St Charles Owl]

The big problem for me is there really is no place to go to find independent advice or information regarding any political vote. Both sides spin their story and both say the other side is lying or simply wrong, but there is no voice of reason to analyze anything. Leaving the EU is a huge decision, and the ramifications of doing so are potentially catastrophic for the UK, and it's far too complex a decision to focus on solely immigration!!

[Statesideowl]

Absolutely, I agree there's no way for us to see in foresight what is going to happen whichever way we lean. No-one seems to be impartial as there's clearly so much as stake.
My real beef is that it's still the everyday people that are going to lose. Whilst I added to the conversation on Immigration, I don't believe either that the decision should be focussed on it. There are many, many issues on the table. Some of which are more pressing there's no doubt.

[St Charles Owl]

Immigration is a concern, and always will be, but the potential impact on the economy, on jobs, on trade etc are far bigger issues, with huge impacts if they go wrong. This should be a referendum on immigration yet when I was over there that is all you heard about. Very few people are in favor of mass immigration, nearly everyone wants controlled immigration where true political asylum seekers are let in and we allow in other immigrants that can contribute to the economy, so in reality we virtually all want essentially the same immigration policy yet listening to the sides over there you would think their stances were polar opposites!!!

[Maddix]

Switzerland and Norway are doing just fine trading with the EU.

Yes there will be a bit/lot of pettiness and spite from the Germans (who tried unsuccessfully to get in the position they are now in two consecutive World Wars), the French (who always do what the Germans say) and big businesses who are using EU laws to pay f'uck all tax in the UK. The short term may well be a bit rough but I genuinely believe we will be better off out in the long term.

Perhaps we could join a 'common market' or something

As I said, I'm not voting for my sake, it's for my kids and future grandkids. I'll gladly take any short term pain to rid them of the shite I've had to put up with over the last 40 odd years

[St Charles Owl]

Yes, but Switzerland and Norway have never been part of the EU. We just don't know what will happen if we pull out, it's never happened before. Renegotiating trade agreements will take years, we have to hope countries allow us to stick with the current ones while we negotiate new ones.

[Maddix]

Yes, but Switzerland and Norway have never been part of the EU.  We just don't know what will happen if we pull out, it's never happened before.  Renegotiating trade agreements will take years, we have to hope countries allow us to stick with the current ones while we negotiate new ones.

And, for the most part, they will. They can't afford not to. 

Besides we still have the Commonwealth that the EU have restricted us from trading with for years 

[St Charles Owl]

Yes, but Switzerland and Norway have never been part of the EU.  We just don't know what will happen if we pull out, it's never happened before.  Renegotiating trade agreements will take years, we have to hope countries allow us to stick with the current ones while we negotiate new ones.

And, for the most part, they will. They can't afford not to. 

Besides we still have the Commonwealth that the EU have restricted us from trading with for years 

Yes I agree that is likely to happen, but we don't know for sure.  

[Jacko The Flopsy Piglet]

Better the devil you know. Stay in for me. Although I'm not going to lose any sleep if it goes the other way. I don't vote in elections because, like Imre, I don't trust any of the political classes to deliver what's best for the country, just what's best for them and their "interested parties". I'm still not sure I'm even going to bother voting in the referendum, I'll just take whatever the country decides and get on with it. In the end the rich will keep getting richer and keep mouthing "heartfelt" platitudes to the poor who keep getting poorer. The whole system is corrupt and skewed in favour of the few at the top, always has been, always will be. It's human nature, I'm afraid. No point worrying about it. Everyone tries to protect themselves and what they've got from those who would "aspire" to have the same or more.

To summarise, people are bad, m'kay!

Here endeth the lesson. Go in pieces.

[Owlkev71]

Vote Leave for me.

[Daffodils on the piano]

If you do not vote in elections or the referendum then you can't complain about anything.I think I'll vote out and when it all goes tits up I'll sit back and laugh my bollocks off.And if it goes well I'll tell people that I knew I was right.Can't lose.Too many unkowns though if we leave and the lack of facts from both sides does not help.