[St Charles Owl]

The primary cause for the loss of lives was the culture in football at the time.

I attended over 70 different grounds in the 70s & 80s and was regularly placed in similar situations at the majority of grounds where a poor policing decision, lots of fans arriving at once or a few drunken idiots could have caused a crush situation. It was just a question of when & where it happened because it was inevitable. Sadly, it happened on our patch.

Hopefully, this gives solace to everyone & they move on rather than pursuing financial gain from the various parties. I know from personal experience that little is gained from these actions.

I think any fan who regularly went to football games in those times, who stood on the vast terraces or were herded like cattle as away supporters would have found themselves in similar, albeit thankfully less fatal situations.  Unfortunately due to the cover up by the Government, Police and media and the stories of drunkeness and ticketless fans being the  sole cause in their spin from the beginning meant that the fans and culture in football at the time were never going to be apportioned any blame.  

The design of that terrace with the fences and the pens was totally as a result of fan behavior and the police desire to put segregation and containment of fans above their safety, and marauding fans running across terraces like was seen at Heysel was a major factor in the pens being erected to control fans.  

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does/did the club carry insurance to protect itself from liability? In the case of negligence though, any such policy may be invalidated.

Have the club beeen found criminally negligent or has that indictment just been placed at the feet of SYP??  I am sure the club has liability insurance but would it be the insurance from 1989 that would be used as we are now a wholly different company to what we were then.  I am sure that MM and DC both looked into the likely fallout from a verdict like this when they bought the club, you would be a very poor businessman if you didn't and neither of those guys strike me as being bad at their jobs!!

SCO: see Owlskev's post Q8-11. It sounds to me that the jury does place part of the blame on SWFC, its physical plant and conduct. Would that hold up i  a court of law? I don't know but the burden of proof in civil cases is not as high as in crown prosecutions. A class action suit by the parents and/or family members of the deceased seems more than likely to me.

I read yesterday that our situation in this verdict was no different to the previous inquests in terms of what our responsibility and role in this was.  The safety certificate issue and layout of the turnstiles etc hasn't changed.  This inquest didn't change anything as regards us from what I can see.  On top of that we made a compensation payment to the families years ago so will that be classed as sufficient?? 

From what I can tell they key points from this inquest was the time of death for each individual was changed, Duckenfield was found guilty of unlawful deaths and the fans were completely exonerated.  Going forward I can only see lawsuits arising out of this against someone, question is who they now go after, if it is us then I am sure we have insurance to cover the cost but this could well go on for some time yet. 

[peiowl]

I don't see how the clubs current regime can be made to pay anything for the actions of previous owners. I can believe that back then it was exceptionally easy to get your dodgy mate down at the council to whip up some certificates.
Any safety measures found wanting or responsible for injury are on the heads of those whom didn't implement such policies. Same applies to those at the City Council & SYP.

Just like any other corrupt large or small government you can imagine, they played pass the buck, letting shit roll downhill all the way to the fans themselves and even Paramedics??
I was still only young at the time but this is how I remember it being prioritised. My friend at the time's dad was a Constable, he was there that day, knocked from his horse. He was fine but 'Traumatized' he was retired off at 35, full pension. Paid by the taxpayer of course. And no, he had no redeeming qualities either, an out and out Pig. I don't doubt he instigated what ever caused him to be removed from his horse.
The real victims that day either died or were told it's their own fault.

There's justice for them and then there's justice for the rest of us.  I can only hope those left hurting for so long can close the wounds and find some solace. Frivolous law suits are not the way forward for anyone.

I understand all of what you and SCO are saying and I sympathize with the gist of it but I'm not sure whether the law works that way. It is still SWFC regardless of changes in ownership. 

I'm also not sure how the culture of the times would enter into a modern day assessment of liabilities. I too remember going to Hillsborough and standing on the Kop. My dad would often joke about those metal barriers which were installed along the terraced steps all the way down the Kop as preventing people being crushed to death. Nobody knowingly made football stadiums unsafe places. But then, nobody knowingly gave thalidomide to pregnant women in the early '60s to cause deformed babies. Look at the cash settlements that resulted there. Or from asbestosis in miners. In Canada, we used to force First Nations' children to go to residential schools where they were often abused physically, sexually, emotionally. Our PM has already issued a public apology for that. Will there be class action suits to follow? Wouldn't be surprised.

People who have lost loved ones do imo merit some form of compensation but from whom? If SWFC was working within the framework of the law at the time, as set by the Football League and ultimately, the government, maybe they are the ones to bear the principal burden. But if, as indicated in the report, SWFC was negligent in some ways, even by standards of the day, then they may not get a free pass.

I hope SCO is right and insurance will cover  any settlements.

[St Charles Owl]

I am not sure how the law works with companies that essentially no longer exist today, which is the situation we are in. If anyone knows more about this then feel free to contribute.

I think I am right in saying though that any legal action has to be applied to 1989 standards in terms of liability, expectations and so on, they cannot use modern day standards as the basis for litigation for something that occurred 30 years ago.

Have we been found to be criminally negligent for anything though?? There are things within our realm that we considered causes or contributing factors in the disaster, but is that the same as criminally negligent?

[peiowl]

I don't know. But, I do know that at least in North America, in civil suits the burden of proof is nowhere near as stringent as in criminal prosecutions, e.g. the O.J. Simpson business.

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The jury also concluded:

Police errors caused a dangerous situation at the turnstiles
Failures by commanding officers caused a crush on the terraces
There were mistakes in the police control box over the order to open the Leppings Lane end exit gates
Defects at the stadium, including calculations over crowd capacity, contributed to the disaster
There was an error in the safety certification of the Hillsborough stadium
South Yorkshire Police (SYP) and South Yorkshire Ambulance Service (SYAS) delayed declaring a major incident
The emergency response was therefore delayed
Sheffield Wednesday failed to approve the plans for dedicated turnstiles for each pen
There was inadequate signage at the club and misleading information on match tickets
Club officials should have requested a delay in kick off as they were aware of a huge number of fans outside shortly before the game was due to start

From bbc report. See bullets 4,5, 8 & 9. Not sure about 10. Depends which "club" is responsible.

[Owlshighgreen]

Trying to decide which is better this...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Dg-g7t2l4

Or the original???

[Jacko The Flopsy Piglet]

Just a great song. Full stop. Really good interpretation though.

In my mind it takes something really radical to be better than the original of a great song.

[peiowl]

Here's one especially for imre. Colin's offspring look just like him.

[St Charles Owl]

Pei, I have to question what websites or searches you are doing to even come up with a picture of Colin's family!!!! Are you stalking him as part of your love affair with him??

[peiowl]

Pei, I have to question what websites or searches you are doing to even come up with a picture of Colin's family!!!!  Are you stalking him as part of your love affair with him??

Sheffield Star?

[Imre varadi]

Nice to see Khan get his head knocked off