[hibeejim21]

Matt, There is an element of the SNP/independence movement who want to leave Brussels and the UK. They are very much a small minority though.

Whats key now is that Starmer wins the labour leadership and starts a fightback from the left, because personally I think sturgeon is running out of ideas, the SNP are going to be clobbered with salmonds upcoming trial and the lib-dems are a complete embarrassment. The fight back has to start from labour down south as they are the only of the left wing parties with the resources and numbers to at least try and fight for progressive politics right now.

[0762]

The Labour Party is "dead n buried" Jim and I was reading a vg Guardian article re millions of people within the English electorate who are terrified of the prospect of a Johnson govt for the next ten years - that is a horrendous prospect!!! Many of these people look at Scotland as an outlet to get away from this nightmare and their fears and aspirations are no different from the ructions within our own population up here. I notice that one of the big unions, UNISON, has finally "broken ranks" from the Labour Party and supports Scotland's right to choose - ABOUT F###### TIME TOO AS THERE ARE LOTS N LOTS OF SCOT MEMBERS IN THE NHS, LOCAL GOV ETC WHO SUPPORT THE SCOT INDY MOVEMENT!! As Matt said in his last thread, we are dealing with a bunch of fascist hypocrites in the British govt who preached democracy and the "will of the people" but not for Scotland????????? F####### impudent hypocrites who are clearly looking for a reaction!!!!! Meanwhile that embarrassment of a Scot Labour leader, Richard Leonard, suddenly commenting that a Scot Election victory next year should signal a mandate for Scot indy (???? - we already have 4 x previous mandates!!!!!!!!!!!!) but he is fighting to reduce the nationalist and indy presence in that election?????? The man is a non-entity, a staunch unionist and totally "out of touch" with the remaining Scots who wish to affiliate with the SLP!!!! A f###### unionist imbecile and the man should have the honesty to stand up and tell the Scot electorate what he is and what he represents rather than talking in riddles!!! IMO he shouldn't be guising in that SLP position of power!! Gordon Brown is another one who should stop the anti Scotland nonsense and admit his true affiliation to a Britnat culture and unionism - loves the feel of ermine and poss getting his peerage, conveniently ignores his involvement in one of the biggest "double cross" strategies against a proper devolved solution that was promised to the Scot people!!!!? His association with a Britnat/English nat philosophy is absolutely damning and he should be challenged much more than he has been!!! The man is a disgrace and his deluded self ego to keep going against the surge of Scotindy positivity is nothing short of embarrassing and worthy of massive criticism!!!

[ritchiebaby]

Matt, There is an element of the SNP/independence movement who want to leave Brussels and the UK. They are very much a small minority though.

Whats key now is that Starmer wins the labour leadership and starts a fightback from the left, because personally I think sturgeon is running out of ideas, the SNP are going to be clobbered with salmonds upcoming trial and the lib-dems are a complete embarrassment. The fight back has to start from labour down south as they are the only of the left wing parties with the resources and numbers to at least try and fight for progressive politics right now.

I'm glad to say I'm in that minority, jim. Personally, I don't see the point of divorcing ourselves from Westminster because we're ignored, just to be beholden to Brussels where we will still be ignored.

[0762]

But it must be pointed out that this issue is part of the bigger debate, soon to be a National Conversation, amongst Scotindy supporters - IT IS NOT A NEW PHENOMENON AND SCOTINDY BACKERS ARE WELL AWARE OF THAT FACT AND ACKNOWLEDGE IT!! But as Jim said - it is still a minority view within the Scotindy movement and backs up why the SNP are adhering to the wishes of the Scottish people in the 2016 referendum vote (btw much higher now than the original 62% majority vote in 2016!) and gain re-entry to the EU. It is a democratic mandate based on the strength of that vote and that is how I see this issue being debated and acknowledged as the right way forward!! I don't see that majority view changing in Scotland. Therefore the SNP's stance is absolutely correct!! What a perfect world we'd live in if there was a 100% backing re remaining with or gaining re-entry to the EU eh!! But that will never happen - such is life and its complications!!

[ritchiebaby]

I think you'll have noted that I have acknowledged the fact and that I am participating in the debate. The only other point that I would raise at the moment is that the 2016 Referendum was all about remaining in or leaving the EU. Now that we have left, there will be a different set of rules for new entrants and that might change some minds.

[St Charles Owl]

One of the oxymoron's of Scottish Independence and Brexit - a lot of those wanting independence become complete unionists when it comes to the EU and complete anti-Unionists when it comes to the UK!!! Different entities for sure but just an interesting observation!

[0762]

I meant to add to my comments to Ritchie that one of the most glaring differences between the EU and this disunited Kingdom/union is the fact the EU would not turn on any of its members and dismiss a formal intention of testing whether that member nation wishes to leave the EU through a referendum vote!!! None of this unconstitutional bullshit such as "now is not the time" or a blatant, arrogant "you are not getting a referendum because my fascist govt says so and you can f### off and 'get back in your box' Scotland and the Scottish people/voters who want it" Now that is a huge difference between respect/pragmatic association and downright disrespect bordering on dictatorship towards a so called "equal member" of a union of devolved countries!!!????

[spireitematt]

The Labour Party is "dead n buried" Jim and I was reading a vg Guardian article re millions of people within the English electorate who are terrified of the prospect of a Johnson govt for the next ten years - that is a horrendous prospect!!! Many of these people look at Scotland as an outlet to get away from this nightmare and their fears and aspirations are no different from the ructions within our own population up here. I notice that one of the big unions, UNISON, has finally "broken ranks" from the Labour Party and supports Scotland's right to choose - ABOUT F###### TIME TOO AS THERE ARE LOTS N LOTS OF SCOT MEMBERS IN THE NHS, LOCAL GOV ETC WHO SUPPORT THE SCOT INDY MOVEMENT!! As Matt said in his last thread, we are dealing with a bunch of fascist hypocrites

You have misquoted me there because I said 'hypocrites', I didn't say fascist hypocrites.

[St Charles Owl]

I meant to add to my comments to Ritchie that one of the most glaring differences between the EU and this disunited Kingdom/union is the fact the EU would not turn on any of its members and dismiss a formal intention of testing whether that member nation wishes to leave the EU through a referendum vote!!! None of this unconstitutional bullshit such as "now is not the time" or a blatant, arrogant "you are not getting a referendum because my fascist govt says so and you can f### off and 'get back in your box' Scotland and the Scottish people/voters who want it" Now that is a huge difference between respect/pragmatic association and downright disrespect bordering on dictatorship towards a so called "equal member" of a union of devolved countries!!!????

Thats not wholly true though is it?? The EU has no jurisdiction over the internal politics of any of its members, especially with regards to referendum regarding membership, in fact its one of the reasons the EU stayed out of the Brexit referendum. And lets not forget they haven't exactly "turned on" Spain with regards to Catalan and its push for independence, in fact they have backed Spain to be able to do what it feels is right while sitting on the fence and talking about people's rights to self-determination - just words, no actions. And so far the UK government has allowed a Scottish Independence referendum in 2014, I get you want another one but the current government is not allowing it and the SNP are not pushing for a decision yet either so its a bit of a moot issue anyway.

[0762]

Matt, THEY ARE FASCISTS - THE BEHAVIOUR IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS AND BORDERING ON DICTATORSHIP WITH NO RESPECT FOR ANY POLITICAL OPPONENT WHATSOEVER!!!!! You may not wanna say that but that is what is clearly self-evident based on the toxic narrative and arrogance attached to said extreme antics and witnessed for a very long time - it is an absolute disgrace and an affront to proper progressive governance and regard for contrary and constructive political dialogue. The words "head buried in the sand" come to mind TBF!! But everyone to their own opinion all the same!!