[0762]

Yep! It's clearly a cheap political game that is being played by Johnson and he knows it. He had the cheek to refer to Scotland's failed domestic record in the past 10 years which was clearly just cheap rhetoric as he is clueless re the decent record of progressive devolved governance up here and should reflect at a far worse record of his own Tory government in England - far worse than his false insinuations which Nicola would "tear to shreds" if given the chance to confront him!! But of course this is a man who doesn't perform well v an impressive political debater and avoid this type of scrutiny "like the plague"!! He is an ex hack who has no respect for Scotland or Scots in general and it shows in the way that he responds in debates with soundbites and uttering, in many cases, absolute lies on topics that he is not rehearsed on!! He has a history of denigrating Scots that borders on blatant racism. His Spectator poem quite a few years ago referred to Scots as "verminous" and incapable of ever governing their own country. This is the level of person that we are dealing with and we were not the only target of this moron either. Ask the people of Liverpool re this c### when he managed to force his crass opinion about them in a column of the Sun newspaper - never forgotten by Scousers who hate the man with a vengeance!!! I've listened to some of his usual "bluff n bluster" shit in the past couple of days and really have to "nip myself" to believe that this minion is a British PM - he is a f###### awful politician, a failed ex Foreign Secretary, and it is a disgrace that somebody of such poor political standing and reputation should be resided at 10 Downing Street!!! What a massive failure of the English electorate and I'm confident that this unnatural choice of such a poor, unstatesmanlike individual will come back to "bite Brexit English voters on the bum" at some stage and deservedly so!! The whole group of Tory/Brexit ministers is full of the usual "lightweight", careerist non-entities that epitomise the gradual decline of reputable politics and politicians in this country and tied in with failed political ideologies that are destined to fail!! It is very sad to observe this and there is an element of deja vu for me after watching similar events in years gone by with the usual crass behaviour coming from the same shit Tory Party AGAIN!!

[St Charles Owl]

Since the last Indy referendum we've had 3 general election's,  3 prime minister's, and a Brexit vote, but somehow a Indy vote on Scotlands Scotlands descion whether to leave Brexit Britain is undemocratic, come on.

No one is suggesting its democratic or undemocratic, there is a process to follow to get Indyref2 and it seems the SNP is following that as they should. I maintain that Nicola is being cautious because the numbers are not yet guaranteed based on those elections results but as has been said that may not reflect on a referendum result the same but they are the only factual numbers anyone has to go by.

---

"The last GE election returned a Tory party with a healthy majority and therefore a clear mandate to complete Brexit"



A clear mandate based on the deeply flawed first past the post system which discounts millions of votes. The tories won 43% of the vote at the end of the day.

fair enough England/wales voted to brexit, if you want to continue down that path to nowhere then I'm happy for that to happen. But I think Scotland should have the right to another vote now to see if we want to as well.

Scotland could have as many referendums as we want if a political party puts it in their manifestos and wins a mandate. That’s called democracy. That's what's happened here.

Why is Westminster going against that?

Of course its a deeply flawed system, its been like that forever and the arguments for and against FPTP have been discussed many times over the years!! Be thankful you don't have an electoral college like they do here is the US!!!

We could go down the road of having referendums on many topics forever but that would be such a colossal waste of money, money that could be used better to fund what is actually needed!! If you suggest that you can keep having a referendum until you get the decision you want then that is completely flawed as well. If you did that and eventually you would win one of them through complete apathy of the electorate, then after that I assume you would advocate continuing to hold them to see if you wanted to rejoin the Union?? That is nonsense!! When you eventually get your independence its going to be a long drawn our process to actual implement it, I would imagine it will be far more complex than the Brexit fiasco we are living through, so while I accept the premise of "once in a generation" it truly will be that if thats the chosen path, it won't be undone and will be a decision that many future generations have to live with irrespective of whether it works or not, just like we will see with Brexit.

[hibeejim21]

'We could go down the road of having referendums on many topics forever but that would be such a colossal waste of money, money that could be used better to fund what is actually needed!! '




“You voted No in 2014 and that’s that until we say different or until Nicola Sturgeon or everybody who voted in that referendum is dead”. Thats the current line we are facing from unionists - Now that's completely flawed thinking. You can't seriously think that's a sustainable plan ?

The SNP spending the last 3 years arguing against Brexit rather than for independence has had an effect in the polls. Independence is going to be a driving issue in Scotland again very soon just as the worst effects of brexit hits. Blowjo knows they would likely lose this time especially as labour are in no shape to do their fighting for them - probably 52/48.

Oh the irony that would be.

[St Charles Owl]

'We could go down the road of having referendums on many topics forever but that would be such a colossal waste of money, money that could be used better to fund what is actually needed!! '

“You voted No in 2014 and that’s that until we say different or until Nicola Sturgeon or everybody who voted in that referendum is dead”. Thats the current line we are facing from unionists -  Now that's completely flawed thinking. You can't seriously think that's a sustainable plan ?

The SNP spending the last 3 years arguing against Brexit rather than for independence has had an effect in the polls. Independence is going to be a driving issue in Scotland again very soon just as the worst effects of brexit hits. Blowjo knows they would likely lose this time especially as labour are in no shape to do their fighting for them - probably 52/48.

Oh the irony that would be.

I don't disagree and I am not against a referendum but it has to be done right and it has to be done legally or else we will find ourselves in a Catalan situation where constitutional procedure was not followed. I think the SNP are playing it right, guarantee the result through public opinion and push for the legal right to do it.

[hibeejim21]

'We could go down the road of having referendums on many topics forever but that would be such a colossal waste of money, money that could be used better to fund what is actually needed!! '

“You voted No in 2014 and that’s that until we say different or until Nicola Sturgeon or everybody who voted in that referendum is dead”. Thats the current line we are facing from unionists -  Now that's completely flawed thinking. You can't seriously think that's a sustainable plan ?

The SNP spending the last 3 years arguing against Brexit rather than for independence has had an effect in the polls. Independence is going to be a driving issue in Scotland again very soon just as the worst effects of brexit hits. Blowjo knows they would likely lose this time especially as labour are in no shape to do their fighting for them - probably 52/48.

Oh the irony that would be.

I don't disagree and I am not against a referendum but it has to be done right and it has to be done legally or else we will find ourselves in a Catalan situation where constitutional procedure was not followed.  I think the SNP are playing it right, guarantee the result through public opinion and push for the legal right to do it.

There's a reason Johnson wants to ban all mention of the word Brexit and that's because it's going to blow up fast.

It's not going to be a long term thing. It's going to blow up particularly quickly in Scotland after 1st Feb when Scotland's non-consent is formally removed, and again in the middle of the year when the farmers and fishermen finally realise they've been screwed.

That's also when Johnson starts stripping Holyrood of powers and later this year when it becomes clear that the trade deal with the EU, (and that's a BIG if), is horrifically one-sided and off-set by trade deals with Trump's America that are even worse...... that's when I expect opinion to really shift.

[0762]

My biggest disappointment is the fact that we will reach a point where we can't turn back and our population is "landed" with a lotta the Brexit shit that has been brokered by the vote of an electorate from another country and who do not share the political views and aspirations of my fellow Scots and others who now favour Scotindy. That direction towards Scotindy will become even more positive as more n more people north of the border finally realise the dire effects that have already been forecast by independent economic analysts in Scotland and in England. I'm expecting that attack on the Scottish govt by Johnson and his fascist cronies at some point this year and I hope the Scotindy movement are prepared and ready to react to this undemocratic move against a well-supported Scottish govt up here. Note Johnson's govt move to have absolute power on repealing previous Acts of Parliament is a massive threat to democracy and our progressive political situation up here in Scotland. These potential moves/attacks must be challenged vigorously if attempted in the negative way that I expect them to be deployed, all part of the populist ideology that the public school bully has absolute power and will "kick you down" and do it again as soon as you recover to get up. I believe there is a crowd-funded move "on the go" to conduct a post GE study of Scottish opinion re the prospect of favouring a Scotindy referendum and being in favour of self-determination. I'd like to see the result of that opinion poll following the "poisonous cocktail" of Brexit and Johnson as PM becoming "very difficult to swallow".

[0762]

Now listen to this story emanating from the House of Lords. An unelected Tory, Lord Cormack, tabled a private members' bill, the Referendums Criteria Bill, in the House of Commons last week. It now awaits a second reading. What this undemocratic clown proposes is that before any referendum is held in the UK, each House of Parliament must pass a motion agreeing to it and, in the event of a division, the majority of MPs and Lords in favour must be at least two thirds of those who vote. If a referendum clears that hurdle, the number of people who vote in it must be equal to, or greater than, 55% of those on the electoral register. However, for it to be accepted, the number who vote in favour must be at least 60% of those who vote in the referendum. Remember the dev referendum of 1979 anybody???? An amendment to the Scotland Act 1978 from a Fife born Labour unionist, Cunningham, that decreed majority support for a devolved assembly would have to be at least 40% of Scotland's electorate. The Yes vote on that occasion was 32.9% and the move failed!!!! Also I recall that in the 1979 referendum, what effectively happened was a zombie electorate comprised part of the No vote - people who were not alive were deemed to have voted no - an element of the 40% rule was that people who were dead effectively were voting against a devolved assembly. I'd be astonished if Cormack's bill actually went anywhere but it does show how some Tories are thinking re this constitutional crisis - desperate measures to gerrymander a referendum are exactly what we would expect from the Westminster establishment TBF! Any rules and power to hold a Scot referendum should lie with the Scottish people and the parliament that they voted for and f### this abuse of power and the constitution itself!!

[ritchiebaby]

0762 and hibeejim21 - I respect your views on the wisdom of using the oft-quoted phrase, but it does appear in the official Scottish Government document and is not misused.

I would imagine that many days and weeks were spent on the preparation of the document, both from a political and legal viewpoint, so it's clear to me that the choice of words was deliberate. Both Alex and Nicola would be to the fore in these discussions as well as high ranking advisers before anything was published, so it is indeed "nuts" to suggest that they really meant something else. We will probably have to wait another 5 years before we have another UK election because of what's happened in the past. We had to wait from 1975 until 2016 to have an EU Referendum because of what's happened in the past. That's how Governments work.

Nicola, Ian Blackford and Co are merely continuing their policy of rabble-rousing while doing very little of any substance. Nicola is requesting/demanding IndyRef2, knowing full well that it will be rejected yet again. In my opinion it will not be until after the 2021 Holyrood elections before she feels able to be more assertive and take matters into her own hands.

[0762]

Fair enough Ritchie!! That is your view. It may well transpire that way as you say but I still think that "significant events" this year could change that position and lotsa supporters of Scotindy hold differing views on the subject anyway! The end goal is important! Wait n see! And lets not "fall out" over the use of that oft-quoted phrase anyway! I notice Johnson added an extra piece to that phrase in his debated rejection (in the parliamentary chamber) of Nicola's written presentation for a Scotindy referendum and said that Alex Salmond and Nicola "promised" the Scottish people that it was a once in a ……… - a ridiculous and impudent statement that is conjured up to rile and incite people like me and Jim and I hope it riles you too! Jim's main point was the fact it is being crassly used to gain some kinda political capital to bolster their bogus argument to reject the power being rightly given to the Scottish Parliament and the people of Scotland. The main point is it is shit and circumstances have greatly changed since 2014 anyway - enough to negate any references to that 2014 result like that cheap oft-quoted phrase!!

[0762]

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/news...ependence/

At last!! The first sign of a positive "swing" to Scottish Independence although there were already other positive indicators well before this one TBH. I hope this is the start of "opening the floodgates" because IMO it is really sad to see a significant "presence" within the Scottish population that holds some really bizarre pro-union views in the face of such antagonism and impudent derisory statements that are being deliberately hurled at the SNP, the Scot govt and ultimately the sovereign rights of a Scottish population that wants nothing to do with Johnson and his shameless, lying fascist chums or their shit ideology attached to a political farce called Brexit, a product of extreme English nationalism if the truth be told!!