[BouncingHibees]

Exactly right Jim and the old post election unionist/Tory f### off line, when Scottish voters previously voted unsuccessfully for a mainstream "unionist" party like Labour, does not apply any more because Scot Labour is finished up here as the population voted in the recent GE for a STOP BORIS, STOP BREXIT, CHOOSE SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE SNP mandate and the Tories played their opposite card (plus vote to "shut up" Nicola Sturgeon) and they were "blown away" - they are non-entities in Scotland and they know it!!! They are blatantly undemocratic c#### and they f####### well know it!! A good example of their shit heid behaviour was a pre-election comment by that wealthy moronic Sec of State for Scotland, Alister Jack, who professed that if there was a majority victory for the SNP in the Dec GE then there would be rightful justification for the Scottish govt to stage another indy referendum. The bastard totally changed his stance at the weekend when he expressed total opposition to what he previously said in December - HE BELIEVED THAT THE SNP WOULDN'T ATTAIN A LANDSLIDE VICTORY OR DECIMATE HIS SCOTTISH TORY PARTY SEATS!!! Hence the shameless, "moving of the goal posts" again!! An "enemy of Scotland" exposed!!!!!  19th century Irish nationalist, Charles Stewart Parnell, famously noted that, "no man has the right to fix the boundary of a nation" and "no man has the right to say to his country, Thus far shalt thou go and no further". How appropriate that statement is in this context!!!

But there wasn't a majority victory for the SNP in the last election!!  Our first past the post system meant they were the top party in 48 constituencies but that won't apply to a referendum.  If the SNP want to use the 2019 GE as the springboard for another referendum then they really needed to get more than 50% of the total vote and as I said I think that is what has caused Nicola to soften her rhetoric with regards to another referendum.  I know Brexit was an all encompassing topic in the GE but even with that backdrop and the mood you describe in Scotland, that magical 50% mark wasn't reached by the SNP.

If we are going on those stats then the SNP have more of a right to ask for a independence vote than Boris has to deliver Brexit, SNP won more of the vote share than the Tories, the Tories in Scotland also fought a 'vote for us is a vote against indy2', they lost, pro remain parties won.

---

Boris's refusal was against a section 30 order being granted, but its yet to be proved we actually need one.

Once in a generation was a personal view from one man, a bit like dead in a ditch, there is currently a legal fight being funded and about to launch against Boris as he has broken the Edinburgh Agreement.

[0762]

https://www.businessforscotland.com/a-20...r-says-no/

I'll just move on from St Charles Owl's thread/opinion re the SNP's "landslide victory" in Scotland in a FPTP GE set up that gave them a majority victory in December. All I'll say is noted and can I receive a "like" as well Amelia EHHHHHHHH (sic)!!!!?
I recommend to my Scottish compatriots that they read this article with great interest as Johnson has indeed said NO to Nicola Sturgeon's demand for the Scot govt to stage an indy referendum. Johnson not politically "bright" but most of us knew that a long time ago. What I find interesting in this article is that a British govt appeal in a Supreme Court could render England's status as a country to cease altogether, something that I suspect Johnson's govt would not dare to test out with such risk attached to it!! The game of political chess begins and, as I suspected but with a bit of hope attached to it, there always was an intricate plan attached to the SNP strategy and it centres on an outraged Scottish population being "pulled in" to the independence cause - call it "uniting the clans" for a common cause! Read this full analysis and be enlightened. The fun begins!!

[hibeejim21]

"If we are going on those stats then the SNP have more of a right to ask for a independence vote than Boris has to deliver Brexit, SNP won more of the vote share than the Tories, the Tories in Scotland also fought a 'vote for us is a vote against indy2', they lost, pro remain parties won."


Hush ye uppity jock

Forget facts like those, England is taking back control and winning back its freedom from European tyranny.

So to break it down - England is allowed to change its mind about the EU but we aren't allowed to change our mind about the UK. What exactly is a 'union' about that ?

[0762]

Hear hear - the contradiction/hypocrisy is absolutely glaring!! And Matt previously asked me to "tone it down" ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!
The words "TAKING THE PISS" come to mind and that is exactly what we are observing from these f###### Brexit chancers whose shameless antics go back years to the start of the whole Brexit farce!!! They've never stopped since then and anybody who condones this shit should be "locked up" and given x months to sober up and become normal again!!

[ritchiebaby]

In the interests of fairness, I feel it necessary to point out that "once in a generation" was not a personal view of one man, it was the phrase used in the preface of Scotlands Future, the official Scottish Government publication in late 2013, setting out their case for Scottish Independence.

With regard to the hated FPTP system, it is responsible for the SNP getting 7.4% of the seats in Westminster despite getting only 3.9% of the votes. In fact, in 2019 the SNP received fewer total votes than in 2015, as well as a smaller percentage of the total votes cast and returning fewer MPs. As a whole, Scottish MPs have never been greatly influential in Westminster, never mind since Independence support increased in Scotland.

I took the trouble to read 0762's Business For Scotland article and found it just as one-sided as any Daily Mail article. Having said that, my support for Independence is solid and hopefully I will be around long enough to see it, but it'll be a while yet.

[St Charles Owl]

Exactly right Jim and the old post election unionist/Tory f### off line, when Scottish voters previously voted unsuccessfully for a mainstream "unionist" party like Labour, does not apply any more because Scot Labour is finished up here as the population voted in the recent GE for a STOP BORIS, STOP BREXIT, CHOOSE SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE SNP mandate and the Tories played their opposite card (plus vote to "shut up" Nicola Sturgeon) and they were "blown away" - they are non-entities in Scotland and they know it!!! They are blatantly undemocratic c#### and they f####### well know it!! A good example of their shit heid behaviour was a pre-election comment by that wealthy moronic Sec of State for Scotland, Alister Jack, who professed that if there was a majority victory for the SNP in the Dec GE then there would be rightful justification for the Scottish govt to stage another indy referendum. The bastard totally changed his stance at the weekend when he expressed total opposition to what he previously said in December - HE BELIEVED THAT THE SNP WOULDN'T ATTAIN A LANDSLIDE VICTORY OR DECIMATE HIS SCOTTISH TORY PARTY SEATS!!! Hence the shameless, "moving of the goal posts" again!! An "enemy of Scotland" exposed!!!!!  19th century Irish nationalist, Charles Stewart Parnell, famously noted that, "no man has the right to fix the boundary of a nation" and "no man has the right to say to his country, Thus far shalt thou go and no further". How appropriate that statement is in this context!!!

But there wasn't a majority victory for the SNP in the last election!!  Our first past the post system meant they were the top party in 48 constituencies but that won't apply to a referendum.  If the SNP want to use the 2019 GE as the springboard for another referendum then they really needed to get more than 50% of the total vote and as I said I think that is what has caused Nicola to soften her rhetoric with regards to another referendum.  I know Brexit was an all encompassing topic in the GE but even with that backdrop and the mood you describe in Scotland, that magical 50% mark wasn't reached by the SNP.

If we are going on those stats then the SNP have more of a right to ask for a independence vote than Boris has to deliver Brexit, SNP won more of the vote share than the Tories, the Tories in Scotland also fought a 'vote for us is a vote against indy2', they lost, pro remain parties won.

Coming out of the EU was based on a referendum result that saw the leave campaign win more votes than the remain campaign did, however you perceive that outcome it was a majority. The last GE election returned a Tory party with a healthy majority and therefore a clear mandate to complete Brexit. So far from what I can see there has never been a majority of votes cast for Scottish Independence in either a GE or a referendum. Yes I am assuming that Scots would vote along party lines if there was a referendum and that may be way off the mark, but its still a fact that 50%+ will be required to gain independence and I am sure that is what scares Nicola if another referendum was granted.

[BouncingHibees]

Since the last Indy referendum we've had 3 general election's, 3 prime minister's, and a Brexit vote, but somehow a Indy vote on Scotlands Scotlands descion whether to leave Brexit Britain is undemocratic, come on.

[hibeejim21]

"The last GE election returned a Tory party with a healthy majority and therefore a clear mandate to complete Brexit"



A clear mandate based on the deeply flawed first past the post system which discounts millions of votes. The tories won 43% of the vote at the end of the day.

fair enough England/wales voted to brexit, if you want to continue down that path to nowhere then I'm happy for that to happen. But I think Scotland should have the right to another vote now to see if we want to as well.

Scotland could have as many referendums as we want if a political party puts it in their manifestos and wins a mandate. That’s called democracy. That's what's happened here.

Why is Westminster going against that?

[0762]

Westminster/the Brexit Party is against that because they are terrified that Scotland and the Scottish people will vote for Scottish independence. That possibility is real and forget about SCO's GE stats and all the rest. The turnout for such a referendum will be much bigger than the 68.6% turnout in Scotland for the general election. I've said this before and repeat that the Scot gov should set a mandatory vote for the next referendum - won't draw a 100% vote anyway but the vote will be emphatic. The right to vote for such a referendum should be with the Scottish people; the decision should not be with Johnson and neither with Nicola Sturgeon but with the Scottish Parliament. Ohhhh, and that mandate has been voted on and agreed by the Scottish parliament!! So why all the animosity against it??????? They are terrified and Jim's thread #293 sums up the fascist nature of the response from these Brexit bastards down south. As undemocratic as it gets!! Your vote is meaningless eh - GET BACK IN YOUR BOX SCOTLAND! AYE, THAT'LL BE RIGHT!!

In the interests of fairness, I feel it necessary to point out that "once in a generation" was not a personal view of one man, it was the phrase used in the preface of Scotlands Future, the official Scottish Government publication in late 2013, setting out their case for Scottish Independence.

With regard to the hated FPTP system, it is responsible for the SNP getting 7.4% of the seats in Westminster despite getting only 3.9% of the votes. In fact, in 2019 the SNP received fewer total votes than in 2015, as well as a smaller percentage of the total votes cast and returning fewer MPs. As a whole, Scottish MPs have never been greatly influential in Westminster, never mind since Independence support increased in Scotland.

I took the trouble to read 0762's Business For Scotland article and found it just as one-sided as any Daily Mail article. Having said that, my support for Independence is solid and hopefully I will be around long enough to see it, but it'll be a while yet.

The para in the preface of that Scot govt white paper reads: "If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost. Decisions about Scotland would remain in the hands of others". The message in that para is far more important and profound than that misused line. Alex Salmond played a big part in approving and placing that "once in a generation line" in that preface and it was ill-conceived - he never needed to put it in that para. He also referred to it in one speech. It is now being used as a rhetorical "stick" to beat up Scots and the SNP in the quest for Scottish independence as though it has been written in some kinda statutory law and therefore Scots are not allowed to push for a second referendum any more even though "material change", namely Brexit, changed everything. The Scottish people have every right to demand that mandate!!!! Lastly Business for Scotland does not compare with a fascist RW "rag" called the Daily Mail that has no regard for Scotland or the democratic rights of the Scottish people - just an opinion but an accurate one!

[hibeejim21]

I love all the emphasis on "once in a generation" for the Scottish vote. Salmond was clearly talking about a political generation, it also ignores the context of the conversation. Corbyn said it too at the GE, had he won do you think there would have been elections stopped for a the duration of a tory leaders life ? No - because that's not what he meant.

You can’t tell a nation that it’s not allowed to express its wishes for 20 years because of something that happened in the past. That's nuts.