[0762]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/ni...spartandhp
Nicola already indicating her intention to "follow through" on her previous assertion re her move to follow the legal route to self-determination. IMO it is clever in the fact that it will expose the usual RW frailties of the British govt and their Unionist ideology/bias that will be given "short shrift" in Scotland as more n more people are regarding these kinda patronising comments to be tiresome and just designed to deliberately irritate people as well as alienate them.

[0762]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s...s-50036176

Nicola Sturgeon confirming her intention to set up her plan A and apply for that Section 30 Order before the turn of the year. A Scotindy referendum to take place next year??? I'd like to see it happen but I'm not sure as the UK political landscape is absolutely febrile. However, I'd personally be setting up a contingency to legally challenge any British govt that opposes the right of a Scottish govt with a mandate to push for a referendum. I think we'd win such a legal case but lets see how the "nice approach" plays out.

[0762]

I thought this piece of information, re Johnson's Brexit withdrawal doc, is well worth mentioning to any Scottish reader - THERE IS NO MENTION OF SCOTLAND IN THIS WHOLE DOCUMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? ADDED TO THIS FACT IS ONE THAT NOTES NORTHERN IRELAND HAS BEEN MENTIONED 111 TIMES, EVEN MENTIONING PERU AND COLOMBIA FFS!!!!!!????? No wonder the general public in Scotland are so unhappy with this UK/English Brexit mess. Come the appropriate time, I'd ensure that every household in Scotland is sent a leaflet describing all this shit in detail!! Let the Scot people arrive at their own logical conclusion re the future political direction to travel on!

[0762]

I must say it was a "treat" to watch a seasoned SNP elder statesman, Mike Russell, putting bbc Newsnight's Kirsty Wark "in her place" tonight when she tried to fire out the usual boring queries/criticisms re Scot Education, Scot indy and Scot referendum timetabling for next year and Nicola Sturgeon's position if she should fail i.e. possibly resign???? As Russell commented on the end question - "Absolutely ludicrous and you know it is Kirsty" as well as highlighting that Nicola has "played a blinder" (throughout the GE campaign eg Johnson doesn't wanna go near her in a debate!!!) compared with the unionist lackies in tonight's bbc Scot leadership debate and the only real leader on show was Nicola Sturgeon!!!! No Johnson or Corbyn anywhere to seen (it is not a Scot GE FFS!!!) - just their unimpressive local lackies!! Russell clearly in fine form tonight and "ramming home" the fact that Johnson is not a democratic PM and never will be while the Scot govt and SNP will fight on behalf of the Scottish people for the democratic right to chart our own destiny plus stopping Brexit, a damaging political ideology that the Scottish people never voted for and never will!!!

[0762]

Nicola formally pushes for a second Scotindy referendum this morning with a media conference and a really good, well-balanced speech on the democratic right of the Scottish people to have that referendum. The timing is absolutely brilliant to coincide with Queen Lizzy's traditional formal speech for the state opening of Parliament and, no doubt, Lizzy referring to unity and democratic values ha ha ha - utter bullshit in the view of millions of Scots who didn't vote for this fascist Brexit govt.

[hibeejim21]

"It is for the prime minister to defend why he believes the UK is not a voluntary union of equal nations. It is for him to set out why he does not believe people in Scotland have the right to self-determination.

“And it is for the prime minister to explain why he believes it is acceptable to ignore election after election in Scotland and to override a democratic mandate stronger than the one he claims for his Brexit deal.”

Fair enough!!!

[0762]

It will expose the fascist and undemocratic state of a British govt that is disguised by the huge majority that they got in the GE - their shit attitude and extreme RW politics have not been changed one jot. I didn't watch or listen to that Queen's speech but my son informed me that Scotland was not mentioned once but Ireland got a mention ha ha ha ha ha!!! It just endorsed why I and millions of unimpressed Scots throughout the country didnae even bother tae listen to this shit that is basically written by some Brexit govt ersehole and handed to Queen Lizzy to "talk to the people" in the same way that she was used and lied to in proroguing Parliament!!! Lastly, one thing that must be emphasised re this whole issue is the fact that Scotland is a devolved country with a separate devolved government and any British govt, even a RW Brexit govt, still has to operate under the auspices of the Treaty of Union 1707. I'd love to see these bastards violate that treaty and that would be a good enough reason to finally formally separate but lets keep it "orderly" and follow a proper process of separation - a bit like Brexit but we'll reverse that element during the formal process!!

[St Charles Owl]

I think you will be waiting a few years before this government will agree to a referendum no matter what Nicola says. By the time they grant it we will be out of the EU completely, which in itself will pose other issues for independence. If it is granted at that point and if the referendum produces an independent Scotland then there will need to be another huge "divorce" period that will be even harder than Brexit was, and before Scotland will be allowed to join the EU, the subject of complete separation from England and the required border controls will be a complete minefield. All of this also assumes that the current members vote unanimously to allow Scotland to join, something that is still a bit of an unknown with regards to Spain and their stance on Catalan.

If all of this is achievable then you could be looking at a potential 10 year process to get to that end point. The cost of that would be in the Billions for the remaining UK and Scotland and the potential for stagnation of economy like we have seen through the Brexit process is a distinct possibility.

[0762]

That is your opinion SCO and consistent with previous ones that you have said in the past. However, it won't surprise you to hear that I disagree with that view and I think you underestimate the SNP/Scot govt. 2020 will present many political events in England, particularly around Brexit, and the SNP are following a route that is not requesting permission for a Section 30 Order - they are presenting the case in a cordial fashion. Also the position of NI and its different status and regard to a referendum wrt the obligation of the same Brexit govt could well be more relevant than you'll ever realise. There are also other factors relative to the Treaty of Union 1707 that I'm not even gonna go into yet because it depends on the future actions of this Brexit govt in England! Re your mention of a border issue, that is an old "red herring" that will be redressed after consultation - the main point is "it is doable"! It is not a sudden new problem that just cropped up!!!! We've had years to think about it and debate!! As for the "unknown"(?) re Spain and their Catalan stance, there has been no formal example of any Spanish govt official ever actually threatening to block Scotland entering the EU, the main theme being if the people of a sovereign country like Scotland wanted membership of the EU, they would get it. The other thing I'd point out is that Scot govt officials, incl Nicola Sturgeon, have not been "sitting on their hands" re the EU and are building alliances, have been for ages - they have built up a strong bond with senior EU officials who acknowledge Scotland's predicament as a country that wants to remain in the EU. There is a lotta stuff going on "behind the scenes" that you are unaware of but the SNP are busy and do indeed have a plan and not just one plan either!!

[St Charles Owl]

You are absolutely right, that has been my position for a while, and yes your opinion is different and only time will tell if either one of us are correct!!

I would say that the border issue cannot be underestimated, it is not a red herring, it will be a very complex issue that needs to be sorted to the satisfaction of the UK, Scotland and the EU. It will likely require a hard border unless we can prove the technology being spoken of is viable, a border that has had nothing but a simple Welcome sign for 300 years!! And that doesn't even take into account the current need to show a Passport to enter the UK. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it will have to be worked out in fine detail before any agreement will be signed by all parties and I personally think that will be a very difficult negotiation and eventual solution.

There will be no formal statement from any Spanish officials at this point!! The last thing they need to do is stoke the already fractured situation they have within their own borders by even commenting on a possible split of the UK!!. Also, the method by which you eventually gain independence will also have a great impact on how the EU members receive any application to join. I have said this before, this all has to be done with no possible legal challenge to the authenticity of first a referendum and then an agreement, something the Catalans should have done. But the veto for any new member exists for every existing member of the EU so I called it unknown because we do not know what the political landscape will be when this is being negotiated.

If the majority of Scottish residents want independence then I am all for it, I would prefer you stay part of the UK but that is not my decision. But there will be no magic wand to undo over 300 years of union, it will be a very tough and long negotiation and due to the nature of the Union there will not be a "hard Brexit" type option, it will have to be negotiated.