[hibeejim21]

"During the referendum the EU should have done a lot more promotion of the good they do and the benefits that directly come to the UK through its membership and its status within it."



No that was for the UK political class to do,and very unpopular politicians chose to make it their message. It wouldn't have mattered too much anyway because the most popular press in the UK was full of the kind of reactionary nonsense that has led us here. Attacks on immigrants increased 3 fold in that referendum campaign.



'You do realise you pretty much called all 17.4 million people who voted Leave, uneducated and racist. '


You do realise the stats back that impression up ?

Anyone paying attention for about the past year knows it's no-deal, rock-hard, blame-the-furriner, bonfire-of-rights, Singapore-on-Sea Brexit that the powers that be in the tories want. Boris won the leadership contest he didn't take part in after all.....clever old him.

No one has explained a) what materially the EU have done to make their lives so shit and b) what the uk is going to do now to make it better?

Im not buying this 'lots of different reasons' patter at all. Sure some might voted brexit to stick it to cameron,but in the end they have just stuck it to themselves.

[St Charles Owl]

"During the referendum the EU should have done a lot more promotion of the good they do and the benefits that directly come to the UK through its membership and its status within it."



No that was for the UK political class to do,and very unpopular politicians chose to make it their message. It wouldn't have mattered too much anyway because the most popular press in the UK was full of the kind of reactionary nonsense that has led us here. Attacks on immigrants increased 3 fold in that referendum campaign.

I did say that the political parties were to blame as well, but surely it was also the EU who should have been saying stuff?? Don't buy the unpopular politicians part either, the leave campaign was led by two of the most divisive and inept figures in UK politics in Farage and Boris, they just did a much better job of getting their points and message across. As for the media, there are enough media outlets on either side of the aisle to get any message across that they wanted to but with Leave commanding both the message and agenda even those media on the remain side were left with talking about only what the leave campaign was saying.

[spireitematt]

"During the referendum the EU should have done a lot more promotion of the good they do and the benefits that directly come to the UK through its membership and its status within it."



No that was for the UK political class to do,and very unpopular politicians chose to make it their message. It wouldn't have mattered too much anyway because the most popular press in the UK was full of the kind of reactionary nonsense that has led us here. Attacks on immigrants increased 3 fold in that referendum campaign.



'You do realise you pretty much called all 17.4 million people who voted Leave, uneducated and racist. '


You do realise the stats back that impression up ?

Anyone paying attention for about the past year knows it's no-deal, rock-hard, blame-the-furriner, bonfire-of-rights, Singapore-on-Sea Brexit that the powers that be in the tories want. Boris won the leadership contest he didn't take part in after all.....clever old him.

No one has explained a) what materially the EU have done to make their lives so shit and b) what the uk is going to do now to make it better?

Im not buying this 'lots of different reasons' patter at all. Sure some might voted brexit to stick it to cameron,but in the end they have just stuck it to themselves.

The way you talk about the EU though, you talk as if its this magical and wonderful thing.

When a law is passed in the EU, you wouldn't be able to revoke that law because all 28 member states, Commission, MEPs, Council of Europe etc would have to all debate it and vote the same way. Where as in the UK if you don't like something the governing party have done you can vote them out and a new governing party can undo what the previous governing party had done. Where as in the EU if a bad law or ruling is passed you can't undo it without everybody agreeing. Also the Commissioners don't have to listen to the citizens they can do what they want as they are unelected. Who voted for these 28 Commissioners? Because I certainly didn't and neither did you.

Also when we vote for our MEP, we are voting for the party not the MEP, I don't even know who my MEP is and neither probably do you. But I know who my MP is because I voted for them and their name was on the ballot paper.

[hibeejim21]

"During the referendum the EU should have done a lot more promotion of the good they do and the benefits that directly come to the UK through its membership and its status within it."



No that was for the UK political class to do,and very unpopular politicians chose to make it their message. It wouldn't have mattered too much anyway because the most popular press in the UK was full of the kind of reactionary nonsense that has led us here. Attacks on immigrants increased 3 fold in that referendum campaign.



'You do realise you pretty much called all 17.4 million people who voted Leave, uneducated and racist. '


You do realise the stats back that impression up ?

Anyone paying attention for about the past year knows it's no-deal, rock-hard, blame-the-furriner, bonfire-of-rights, Singapore-on-Sea Brexit that the powers that be in the tories want. Boris won the leadership contest he didn't take part in after all.....clever old him.

No one has explained a) what materially the EU have done to make their lives so shit and b) what the uk is going to do now to make it better?

Im not buying this 'lots of different reasons' patter at all. Sure some might voted brexit to stick it to cameron,but in the end they have just stuck it to themselves.

The way you talk about the EU though, you talk as if its this magical and wonderful thing.

When a law is passed in the EU, you wouldn't be able to revoke that law because all 28 member states, Commission, MEPs, Council of Europe etc would have to all debate it and vote the same way. Where as in the UK if you don't like something the governing party have done you can vote them out and a new governing party can undo what the previous governing party had done. Where as in the EU if a bad law or ruling is passed you can't undo it without everybody agreeing. Also the Commissioners don't have to listen to the citizens they can do what they want as they are unelected. Who voted for these 28 Commissioners? Because I certainly didn't and neither did you.

Also when we vote for our MEP, we are voting for the party not the MEP, I don't even know who my MEP is and neither probably do you. But I know who my MP is because I voted for them and their name was on the ballot paper.

"Also when we vote for our MEP, we are voting for the party not the MEP, I don't even know who my MEP is and neither probably do you. But I know who my MP is because I voted for them and their name was on the ballot paper."



Are you saying that the MEPs name and political party is not on a ballot paper ?

[spireitematt]

"During the referendum the EU should have done a lot more promotion of the good they do and the benefits that directly come to the UK through its membership and its status within it."



No that was for the UK political class to do,and very unpopular politicians chose to make it their message. It wouldn't have mattered too much anyway because the most popular press in the UK was full of the kind of reactionary nonsense that has led us here. Attacks on immigrants increased 3 fold in that referendum campaign.



'You do realise you pretty much called all 17.4 million people who voted Leave, uneducated and racist. '


You do realise the stats back that impression up ?

Anyone paying attention for about the past year knows it's no-deal, rock-hard, blame-the-furriner, bonfire-of-rights, Singapore-on-Sea Brexit that the powers that be in the tories want. Boris won the leadership contest he didn't take part in after all.....clever old him.

No one has explained a) what materially the EU have done to make their lives so shit and b) what the uk is going to do now to make it better?

Im not buying this 'lots of different reasons' patter at all. Sure some might voted brexit to stick it to cameron,but in the end they have just stuck it to themselves.

The way you talk about the EU though, you talk as if its this magical and wonderful thing.

When a law is passed in the EU, you wouldn't be able to revoke that law because all 28 member states, Commission, MEPs, Council of Europe etc would have to all debate it and vote the same way. Where as in the UK if you don't like something the governing party have done you can vote them out and a new governing party can undo what the previous governing party had done. Where as in the EU if a bad law or ruling is passed you can't undo it without everybody agreeing. Also the Commissioners don't have to listen to the citizens they can do what they want as they are unelected. Who voted for these 28 Commissioners? Because I certainly didn't and neither did you.

Also when we vote for our MEP, we are voting for the party not the MEP, I don't even know who my MEP is and neither probably do you. But I know who my MP is because I voted for them and their name was on the ballot paper.

"Also when we vote for our MEP, we are voting for the party not the MEP, I don't even know who my MEP is and neither probably do you. But I know who my MP is because I voted for them and their name was on the ballot paper."



Are you saying that the MEPs name and political party is not on a ballot paper ?

When I voted in 2014 in the EU elections the only thing on the ballot paper were the political parties and you don't put a cross like our elections it's 1-5 in order of preference because they use proportional representation. Also found out I've got 5 MEPs for where I live. 2 UKIP, 2 Tory and 1 Labour.

[hibeejim21]

That's because the parties themselves decide who goes on the candidate list for the electoral regions. The ones at the top stand the best chance of being elected. I'm sure the candidates names were underneath the party name on the ballot paper.

[St Charles Owl]

Photo of the ballot from 2014 UK MEP elections.

[themaclad]

Tony Blairs group did an opinion poll of 80000 that took part 63% still voted to leave not quite what the war criminal would have wanted

[spireitematt]

Photo of the ballot from 2014 UK MEP elections.

Yeah like that but the one I voted with the names weren't on the ballot paper just the parties logo.

[ritchiebaby]

But they didn't give it an adverse opinion which is what some are saying they are trying to hide. This 'they haven't had the accounts signed off in 20 years' is a total lie.

The most recent report gives a qualified opinion that “A significant part of the 2016 expenditure audited was not affected by a material level of error”.

They stress around 3% of their budget was not used according to the rules,but that is "not a measure of fraud, inefficiency or waste"

Jim, your selective quotes are accurate, but it doesn't alter the fact that my selective quotes are equally correct.

In fact the report says that "About half of 2016 expenditure is free from material error". What it conveniently omits to say is that just over half is not free from material error. The report also states that there is a materiality error of 4.8% (approx. 3bn Euros) in re-imbursement payments and it also goes on to give examples of such errors and the reporting of 11 fraud cases directly discovered by their audit.

That figure is lower than most national budgets ritchie. Perspective please.

Material error arises from things like a missing supporting document or the incorrect application of rules (these were the two main causes of material error noted by the auditors). Material error is an accounting term and it does NOT mean fraud or waste.

Oh, Jim.    Just a prime example of a typical dismissive reply by you.

Perspective is relative to your agreement or otherwise of my point of view, and a material error of 3bn Euros, more than the total annual expenditure on Security and Citizenship (2.4bn Euros) is definitely substantial.

Material error does NOT NECESSARILY mean fraud or waste. It might mean fraud, as the ECA did discover in 11 instances, and might mean inefficiency or waste, as shown by the ECA's examples quoted in their report.

However, you'll not need to be bothered by my perspective on this argument for some time to come.