[0762]

The whole of Europe could have an FTA with each other without any need for the whole EU bollox what-so-ever. That of course would take a lot of political and other big fat piggy noses out of the troughs and away from the gravy trains that keep them in the way to which they have become accustomed, so fat chance of that ever happening. Political turkeys voting for Christmas? It will never happen. Don't try to tell me Farage did - we all know he's on the EU gravy train for life now regardless of what happens.

Farage's recent retort re his eventual 'tidy' EU pension pot really 'said it all' - I've got a family to feed eh! Aye, the 'I'm alright Jack' mentality while playing a part in f###### up the politics of this country and dividing the country itself!! Sickening and a born hypocrite!

[hibeejim21]

I think that the EU and it's supporters should be able to answer my questions, because the answers can only be given by them, assuming they have thought about the possibilities.

As far as your comments are concerned, I see no reason why the Good Friday Agreement can't be honoured. As far as I can see, the full alignment question only exists if there is no agreed settlement between the UK and EU - plenty of negotiating to be done yet. Other than that, I can only explain that as the politicians are in charge, nothing can be taken at face value.

Why can the answers only be given by them ? May insisted on a post brexit border checks between ireland and the UK right up to the december turnaround,and if we are going to leave the customs union a border becomes necessary regardless of what the EU want. Leaving the customs union goes against the fundamental points the good friday agreement was based on.

The december agreement was a mass of contradictions to keep everyone moving that can't ever square..... no hard border for the ROI, no border in the Irish Sea for the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), out the customs union and the single market for the Brexiteers, and regulatory alignment between Ireland north and south for the European Commission.

All of that can't happen and eventually it will have to be faced.

[0762]

IMO this issue is partly about political survival and, as you say, there are too many contradictory solutions! I reckon there will be a lotta MPs who will be 'hounded out' of their positions after the 'dust settles' on brexit and there is no turning back! What baffles me is why some new political parties with a 'different future vision' have not been formed to oppose both the traditional 'suspects', Tory party and Labour, both having been far from impressive during this 'crisis period' that could define the future well-being of our country for generations. I can only put the reason down to an antiquated 'first past the post' electoral system that influences the choice of a significant portion of the voting population. The evolution of new challenging political parties has happened in other Euro countries before but not here even when the main ones are generally shit, disunited and unimpressive!

[ritchiebaby]

The questions I posed have nothing to do with the UK and everything to do with the EU. But never mind, I'll move on. I must admit I'm slightly baffled about the need for an implementation period. Instead of having a potential cliff edge in March 2019, we'll now have one in December 2020 (or whatever date is decided). It's all political posturing, designed to put off making a decision.

The EU itself has a few anomalies - Andorra and Cyprus spring to mind, but there might be others. I certainly agree that the Tories are getting in a right fankle over Brexit plans - John Major trying to please too many factions in 1997 is a prime example. The concessions by the UK in December were solely due to it's desperation to move onto the second phase of negotiations.

I would point out that the LibDems are basing their policies on a referendum on the UK remaining in the EU, so there is a national party for the Remain vote. In my opinion the current "first past the post in each constituency" system is the best available, being the most likely to have a decisive result. As soon as you bring in second choices or regional representatives, a minority government is almost guaranteed. For example, instead of the SNP having a massive majority in 2016, they now have to rely on support from the Greens.

[hibeejim21]

I think 'first past the post' is a way outdated system, it makes everything seat based rather than voter based.

That's why the DUP have ten times more seats than the greens despite getting about half of the votes the greens got. Its also why Blair got a parliamentary majority in 2005 despite getting 35% of the vote and Atlee lost to Churchill in 1951 despite getting more votes.

Yet we call the EU undemocratic.


"The concessions by the UK in December were solely due to it's desperation to move onto the second phase of negotiations.

That's exactly what I meant. No solution has been found,so its been kicked into the long grass. But now the UK has backtracked on that "concession".
Don't be surprised if there is no settlement and the tories go for a very hard brexit, may has already shown she will put 20 odd mps before the country.

[spireitematt]

I would point out that the LibDems are basing their policies on a referendum on the UK remaining in the EU, so there is a national party for the Remain vote.

Not exactly. I've discovered today that a new political party has been set up called Renew Britain which has been set up with the help of En Marche (Macron's party) they are a new British Pro-EU party.

https://renewbritain.org/

The scary thing is they've got some good policies to be fair and it looks like they could park their tanks on Labour/SNP's lawns.

[St Charles Owl]

I think 'first past the post' is a way outdated system, it makes everything seat based rather than voter based.

That's why the DUP have ten times more seats than the greens despite getting about half of the votes the greens got. Its also why Blair got a parliamentary majority in 2005 despite getting 35% of the vote and Atlee lost to Churchill in 1951 despite getting more votes.

Yet we call the EU undemocratic.

Until a proper alternative to first past the post is created I cannot see our system changing. The UK parliament was set up to allow citizens to nominate through local election a person to represent them, therefore we have 650 constituencies where in a GE those constituencies elect their representative. If you simply moved to a proportional representation system then their will be no local accountability or even local focus from anyone in the House of Commons, the focus will only ever be on the party as a whole. Countries that have Presidents tend to use PR for that part of the election but then still have local elections to elect their representatives in government, similar to what they have here in the US. Neither system is perfect but each have benefits.

At the 2015 election a PR system would have seen both the Tories and Labour lose a bunch of seats with the Greens, Lib Dems and UKIP being the biggest gainers, in fact UKIP would have ended up with 83 seats. The biggest losers would have been the parties that only campaign in certain regions such as the SNP, DUP etc, they would have seen the number of seats they have almost decimated in some cases due to the relatively small amount of votes they receive compared to the national parties.

[hibeejim21]

I would point out that the LibDems are basing their policies on a referendum on the UK remaining in the EU, so there is a national party for the Remain vote.

Not exactly. I've discovered today that a new political party has been set up called Renew Britain which has been set up with the help of En Marche (Macron's party) they are a new British Pro-EU party.

https://renewbritain.org/

The scary thing is they've got some good policies to be fair and it looks like they could park their tanks on Labour/SNP's lawns.

Their membership would be better off joining the tories and waiting for their older demographic to die off and replacing them as a pro EU party Would probably be quicker than winning anything under FPTP.

[spireitematt]

I would point out that the LibDems are basing their policies on a referendum on the UK remaining in the EU, so there is a national party for the Remain vote.

Not exactly. I've discovered today that a new political party has been set up called Renew Britain which has been set up with the help of En Marche (Macron's party) they are a new British Pro-EU party.

https://renewbritain.org/

The scary thing is they've got some good policies to be fair and it looks like they could park their tanks on Labour/SNP's lawns.

Their membership would be better off joining the tories and waiting for their older demographic to die off and replacing them as a pro EU party    Would probably be quicker than winning anything under FPTP.

Proportional representation is good because it means that all parties would have to work together but it would also mean we would have a coalition Government and they can be weak and indecisive. Also under Proportional representation it would mean electoral constituencies would have to be bigger but also that means local issues could be lost in the crowd. It would also mean that parties wouldn't have seats for life in certain areas but also could mean that right wing parties could get MPs elected.

Problem with First past the post is MPs can be elected with a small percentage of the vote. Back in 2005 Labour won the election with something like 32% of the vote.

[St Charles Owl]

Proportional representation is good because it means that all parties would have to work together but it would also mean we would have a coalition Government and they can be weak and indecisive. Also under Proportional representation it would mean electoral constituencies would have to be bigger but also that means local issues could be lost in the crowd. It would also mean that parties wouldn't have seats for life in certain areas but also could mean that right wing parties could get MPs elected.

Problem with First past the post is MPs can be elected with a small percentage of the vote. Back in 2005 Labour won the election with something like 32% of the vote.

Coalition governments are usually incapable of creating real change when its needed, everything becomes a compromise in the end. And its not just right wing parties that would get MPs under PR, some of the loony left would also get elected!! You would also likely see a rise in one topic parties getting seats in one election and then disappearing the next - UKIP being an obvious one but before devolution the SNP would have come into that category.