[hibeejim21]

Both the EU and Brexit negotiating teams are hopeless and none of them have done a business deal and majority of them have never had a proper job they've just been on the gravy train. It's a complex issue and it has to be done properly and it's not.

This is what I said. I said that both negotiating sides are hopeless as none of them have done a business deal and majority of them have never had a proper job as they've been on the gravy train. I meant the EU politicians and UK politicians.

Who do you want negotiating this clusterfuck? That wee twerp from wetherspoons ?

You (and also oddly enough the daily mail and its readers) keep talking about this process as if it is a business negotiation. It is nothing like a business negotiation, and it has led many people to actually believe the 'no deal is better than a bad deal' pish is true because in business you would walk away rather than accept a bad deal.

The big difference among many,many others is that in this process, no deal means our regulatory infrastructure in key areas ceases unless a domestic authority has been established by that time. So far, there is no indication that is going to happen. If you think it will be then you are deluded.

No, This is mostly about diplomacy and politics because this is going to be about the EUs treaties and articles, and shock of horrors that is going to require diplomats and politicians. As for the trade element, are you seriously telling me that those working for the biggest trade bloc on the planet can't do a deal ?

The EU are going to end up doing a deal for us,and hope that may can sell it to the brexit loons. OR we go all WTO and tank an already weak economy and further divide our already stricken society. This is why i and anyone else sensible is worried about this 'taking back of control'.

[spireitematt]

Both the EU and Brexit negotiating teams are hopeless and none of them have done a business deal and majority of them have never had a proper job they've just been on the gravy train. It's a complex issue and it has to be done properly and it's not.

This is what I said. I said that both negotiating sides are hopeless as none of them have done a business deal and majority of them have never had a proper job as they've been on the gravy train. I meant the EU politicians and UK politicians.

Who do you want negotiating this clusterfuck? That wee twerp from wetherspoons ?  

You (and also oddly enough the daily mail and its readers) keep talking about this process as if it is a business negotiation. It is nothing like a business negotiation, and it has led many people to actually believe the 'no deal is better than a bad deal' pish is true because in business you would walk away rather than accept a bad deal.

The big difference among many,many others is that in this process, no deal means our regulatory infrastructure in key areas ceases unless a domestic authority has been established by that time. So far, there is no indication that is going to happen. If you think it will be then you are deluded.

No, This is mostly about diplomacy and politics because this is going to be about the EUs treaties and articles, and shock of horrors that is going to require diplomats and politicians. As for the trade element, are you seriously telling me that those working for the biggest trade bloc on the planet can't do a deal ?

The EU are going to end up doing a deal for us,and hope that may can sell it to the brexit loons. OR we go all WTO and tank an already weak economy and further divide our already stricken society. This is why i and anyone else sensible is worried about this 'taking back of control'.

I think lawyers and solicitors should be doing the negotiations and it should be cross party, They need people like Starmer and Hague helping with the negotiations and the whole thing needs to be more public, maybe they should film it and put it on Parliament channel so the public know what is being said and what the negotiations are about.

The trade negotiations will be like a business deal as they will need to negotiate tariffs. The non-trade negotiations are more like a divorce and each side will have to give and take to get past the non-trade negotiations to enter the trade negotiations. No deal is not better than a bad deal, a no deal is a bad deal! and both sides don't want a no deal because the whole thing will be long and drawn out and it will mean the UK will have to apply to go back to WTO rules and Germany have said they want a trade deal sorted as soon as possible because they export more goods to us than we do to them and there is even talk of Germany doing a special trade deal with us.

The articles and treaties won't apply to us if we are leaving fully but they will apply to us if we stay in the single market. The biggest thing which is stalling talks is the EU want EU citizens currently residing in the UK to be given the right to live and work and the UK want the same for the expats leaving on the continent and neither side will say if they will allow them to stay. The other big obstacle in the way is the EU want £60-£100 billion upfront which will be for MEP pensions and other payments and unless we give them £60-£100 billion then they can't move forward to the trade talks.

Also even if we leave in 2019 we will still be paying into the EU till 2021 as the Tories agreed the 7 year budget back in 2014.

No one has left the EU before so this is unknown to the EU and to the UK. The only country to leave the EU or the common market was Greenland who voted to leave in 1982 over a row over fishing rights but they didn't leave properly till 1985 as it took 3 years to sort a deal out on fish. So it could take the UK 10 years or more to sort out a deal on trade. So to sort a trade deal out in less than 2 years on millions of products and services is unrealistic and anybody who thinks a trade deal can be sorted out in less than 2 years are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Yes the EU will sort out a deal for us and they will say take it or leave it and whoever is in charge in 2019 will come back and give a speech and its likely there will be another referendum on the deal and the options will be stay in the single market, leave fully or remain in the European Union.

Problem is if we go to WTO rules there will be countries who will want freedom of movement from Non-EU countries just for a trade deal with us and the thing is if people look at the immigration statistics there is more migration from Non-EU countries than there is from EU countries. So all the people who voted to leave based on immigration are going to feel lied and misled.

Brexit or no Brexit the country was and is divided and the Tories are partly to blame for that as class war is on its way back. There is a divide economically and politically as people are fed up of austerity and those at the top go on about the trickle down effect which never happens. There is a saying. "There are two types of people who vote Tory, the rich and those who are misled, to find out which one you are check your wallet".

People voted for Brexit on different reasons. Some voted on immigration, some voted because they knew that if we left it would get rid of Cameron (and they were right) some people voted to hold our own Government to account because for the last 7 years inside the EU the Government said we couldn't do this or do that as we had to abide EU law and they thought if we left then the Tories couldn't use the EU anymore as an excuse and they would have to take responsibility for there actions but even if we leave the Tories will still find some excuse for not putting funding into infrastructure or public services. Some had already made there minds up years before this vote as they thought the EU was a bad thing and some voted to leave because they thought we should never have joined the common market.

The referendum was probably one of the most dirtiest and underhand votes ever as both sides lied throughout and both made claims which were untrue. No one deep down knows what will happen its all speculation and might or may scenarios. If we stay in the EU it could become a federal Europe with no borders and people can travel freely across the continent to live and work with 1 flag, 1 anthem, 1 currency. If we leave we could be successful or we could face years of hardship before it gets better. If we leave fully a new generation might come along and take us back in if the EU is still going.

If the EU wants to keep going they need to reform and ask themselves why are people starting to become Eurosceptic in certain countries. If the Five Star Movement (Left wing party) in Italy do well or even win the election next year then I expect to see a referendum on Italy's membership of the EU. If the Czech Republic, Hungary or Poland get expelled from the EU that will really change things. The same with Catalonia if they get independence from Spain it will cause the EU a headache.

[hibeejim21]

I think lawyers and solicitors should be doing the negotiations and it should be cross party, They need people like Starmer and Hague helping with the negotiations


I'm confused now, i thought it was a lack of business acumen you had a issue with ? Either way the EU negotiating teams come from a very broad background,far more than the UKs. You know yourself why it can't ever be cross party. We've discussed it plenty on this echo chamber, that said i didn't realise hagues background was in law,or EU law like starmers.

The trade negotiations will be like a business deal as they will need to negotiate tariffs.



It will be much,much more complicated than that,As the head of air france was pointing out earlier.


" Germany have said they want a trade deal sorted as soon as possible because they export more goods to us than we do to them and there is even talk of Germany doing a special trade deal with us".


More obfuscation. Again as you've been told many times on here,germany trades far,far more with the single market. Their business leaders have made it clear the integrity of the single market comes first. There won't be any special deal ffs,it would go against what the EU is all about.


"The articles and treaties won't apply to us if we are leaving fully but they will apply to us if we stay in the single market. The biggest thing which is stalling talks is the EU want EU citizens currently residing in the UK to be given the right to live and work and the UK want the same for the expats leaving on the continent and neither side will say if they will allow them to stay."



More lies and nonsense. Spain have already confirmed UK citizens can stay,as have others. Its May thats playing that game. Many of those articles and treaties that won't apply are part of UK law. As starmer and others have pointed out the tories 'great repeal bill' is flawed and much of that will stay in place post brexit. Even mays hated ECJ will still have sway.


"No one has left the EU before so this is unknown to the EU and to the UK. The only country to leave the EU or the common market was Greenland who voted to leave in 1982 over a row over fishing rights but they didn't leave properly till 1985 as it took 3 years to sort a deal out on fish"


Irrelevant. Although hilariously the greenland negotiator of that warned the UK that what we were doing was crazy.


'If we stay in the EU it could become a federal Europe with no borders and people can travel freely across the continent to live and work with 1 flag, 1 anthem, 1 currency.'

The UK has a veto on closer integration as a member of the EU. So please stop this pish.

If you are looking for an undemocratic state to slag off take a look at the UK. One country dominates the others and is due to drag all out of the EU whether they like it or not. The UK has more unelected politicians than all of the EU countries and the EU put together.

[0762]

I'll supplement that end comment by saying the biggest lie was this brexit 'branding' of the 'big nasty corporate EU' with all it's weaknesses while conveniently missing out the culpable role of successive British governments which were never as squeaky clean in democratic and constitutional terms as many of these Brexit numpties, and others incl the media, have inferred for years!!!! Total hypocrisy personified when I read this shit!!

[spireitematt]

I'm confused now, i thought it was a lack of business acumen you had a issue with ? Either way the EU negotiating teams come from a very broad background,far more than the UKs. You know yourself why it can't ever be cross party. We've discussed it plenty on this echo chamber, that said i didn't realise hagues background was in law,or EU law like starmers.

I have an issue with the whole of the negotiating team. You send your strongest and best to negotiate which I don't think we have. It has to be cross party though the Tories can't do it on there own and there making a pig's ear of the whole thing while trying to put on a brave face. Hague is a good negotiator, you need people like Starmer and Thornberry doing the talks as well as Lib Dems, SNP etc.

It will be much,much more complicated than that,As the head of air france was pointing out earlier.


Jean-Marc Janaillac the boss of Air France has said for British Airlines to fly to the continent we have to accept European Court of Justice control.

More obfuscation. Again as you've been told many times on here,germany trades far,far more with the single market. Their business leaders have made it clear the integrity of the single market comes first. There won't be any special deal ffs,it would go against what the EU is all about.

This is why I dislike the EU. Countries should be allowed to do independent trade deals themselves with non-EU countries without having to go through the single market or EU rules.

More lies and nonsense. Spain have already confirmed UK citizens can stay,as have others. Its May thats playing that game. Many of those articles and treaties that won't apply are part of UK law. As starmer and others have pointed out the tories 'great repeal bill' is flawed and much of that will stay in place post brexit. Even mays hated ECJ will still have sway.

Spain have confirmed today that UK citizens can stay but no other country in the EU has confirmed yet. May is playing a game. Majority of EU law will become UK law because they can't debate hundred of thousands of separate laws in the commons as it would take ages to put through.

Irrelevant. Although hilariously the greenland negotiator of that warned the UK that what we were doing was crazy.

Technicality Greenland is sort of the in the EU as the citizens in Greenland qualify for Denmark citizenship. There is talk of Greenland looking at rejoining and so is Iceland. Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Turkey, Bosnia and Kosovo are wanting to join the EU. Turkey applied back in the late 80s but so far have only met 13 of the 35 requirements. Azerbaijan have also looked at joining the EU.

The UK has a veto on closer integration as a member of the EU. So please stop this pish.

It's not pish when the likes of Juncker and Verhofstadt keep going on about an ever closer union, a United Europe and a European Army.

If you are looking for an undemocratic state to slag off take a look at the UK. One country dominates the others and is due to drag all out of the EU whether they like it or not. The UK has more unelected politicians than all of the EU countries and the EU put together.

We need proportional representation in the UK. One country doesn't dominate the others, there is a Westminister bubble where they mainly care about London and forget about the rest of the UK, look at all the funding of projects it all goes down South, while the Midlands, North, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get forgotten about unless there is an election. Parliament is elected the House of Lords is unelected and the House of Lords should either be abolished or become a 2nd chamber where they are voted in to represent the people. As for the EU elections they use proportional representation but we vote for the party and not for the candidate and MEP candidates are chosen by the party and not by the members of the party. The EU commission is unelected and the Governments of the countries put forward a commissioner and what the commissioner does is put forward laws with the other commissioners and then it gets put forward to the European Council and once it has passed the European Council it then goes to the EU Parliament to be debated or to be reformed or rejected. It's the same with how the EU presidents are chosen they are put on ballots and the MEPs vote on the presidents not the EU citizens.

If we stay in the EU and they create all these laws for us then what is the point of having a UK Parliament then?

Watch these videos.

[hibeejim21]

I'll supplement that end comment by saying the biggest lie was this brexit 'branding' of the 'big nasty corporate EU' with all it's weaknesses while conveniently missing out the culpable role of successive British governments which were never as squeaky clean in democratic and constitutional terms as many of these Brexit numpties, and others incl the media, have inferred for years!!!! Total hypocrisy personified when I read this shit!!

Well aye.

We have all admitted the EU isn't perfect,but lets be honest. Who went after google for tax evasion the UK or EU? Tuition fees are affordable in france,there are power charge caps,bans on zero hour contracts,industries are even nationalised when needed.

But naw, lets make the uk a tax haven for oligarchs and despots instead.

[spireitematt]

I'll supplement that end comment by saying the biggest lie was this brexit 'branding' of the 'big nasty corporate EU' with all it's weaknesses while conveniently missing out the culpable role of successive British governments which were never as squeaky clean in democratic and constitutional terms as many of these Brexit numpties, and others incl the media, have inferred for years!!!! Total hypocrisy personified when I read this shit!!

Well aye.

We have all admitted the EU isn't perfect,but lets be honest. Who went after google for tax evasion the UK or EU?  Tuition fees are affordable in france,there are power charge caps,bans on zero hour contracts,industries are even nationalised when needed.

But naw, lets make the uk a tax haven for oligarchs and despots instead.

Tuition fees affordable in France have nothing to do with the EU or the power charge caps or the ban on zero hour contracts or the fact industries are nationalised. That is what there own countries do nothing to do with the EU. I think deep down you want to stay in the EU because you would rather stay in the EU and have the EU controlling over us than have a Tory Government in charge, I think that this is what it boils down to and you won't be the only one as I've heard a lot of other remain voters that want that as well.

[hibeejim21]

I'll supplement that end comment by saying the biggest lie was this brexit 'branding' of the 'big nasty corporate EU' with all it's weaknesses while conveniently missing out the culpable role of successive British governments which were never as squeaky clean in democratic and constitutional terms as many of these Brexit numpties, and others incl the media, have inferred for years!!!! Total hypocrisy personified when I read this shit!!

Well aye.

We have all admitted the EU isn't perfect,but lets be honest. Who went after google for tax evasion the UK or EU?  Tuition fees are affordable in france,there are power charge caps,bans on zero hour contracts,industries are even nationalised when needed.

But naw, lets make the uk a tax haven for oligarchs and despots instead.

Tuition fees affordable in France have nothing to do with the EU or the power charge caps or the ban on zero hour contracts or the fact industries are nationalised. That is what there own countries do nothing to do with the EU. I think deep down you want to stay in the EU because you would rather stay in the EU and have the EU controlling over us than have a Tory Government in charge, I think that this is what it boils down to and you won't be the only one as I've heard a lot of other remain voters that want that as well.

I'd rather have the EU running us than the tories yes. Whats wrong with that?

The EU allowed all the above to happen, the UK wouldn't. In fact in the case of zero hour contracts the UK is the only european nation where it is totally widespread.

Digging up a pair of dinosaurs like skinner and benn to argue your point. Jeezo

[spireitematt]

I'll supplement that end comment by saying the biggest lie was this brexit 'branding' of the 'big nasty corporate EU' with all it's weaknesses while conveniently missing out the culpable role of successive British governments which were never as squeaky clean in democratic and constitutional terms as many of these Brexit numpties, and others incl the media, have inferred for years!!!! Total hypocrisy personified when I read this shit!!

Well aye.

We have all admitted the EU isn't perfect,but lets be honest. Who went after google for tax evasion the UK or EU?  Tuition fees are affordable in france,there are power charge caps,bans on zero hour contracts,industries are even nationalised when needed.

But naw, lets make the uk a tax haven for oligarchs and despots instead.

Tuition fees affordable in France have nothing to do with the EU or the power charge caps or the ban on zero hour contracts or the fact industries are nationalised. That is what there own countries do nothing to do with the EU. I think deep down you want to stay in the EU because you would rather stay in the EU and have the EU controlling over us than have a Tory Government in charge, I think that this is what it boils down to and you won't be the only one as I've heard a lot of other remain voters that want that as well.

I'd rather have the EU running us than the tories yes. Whats wrong with that?  

The EU allowed all the above to happen, the UK wouldn't. In fact in the case of zero hour contracts the UK is the only european nation where it is totally widespread.

Digging up a pair of dinosaurs like skinner and benn to argue your point. Jeezo  

If you want the EU running the UK instead of the tories than that means your all in favour for a United States of Europe dictatorship and I suspected so for a while the way you were talking.

You're very insulting aren't you to people who have a different opinion or viewpoint to yours. Wonder how you go on supporting Hibernian when a different fan has a different opinion to yours.

I'm bored of this, I'm going for a Twix.

[hibeejim21]

I'm not in favour of any 'dictatorship',certainly not the one running about in your imagination. No, just purely on a competency level the EU politicians run rings round the tories. I'd take anyone over those xxxx.

Basically i've tried to debate with you but i just really struggle to see what your position is. You voted remain,but you're a eurosceptic armed with an arsenal of farage scaremongering and downright inaccuracies about the EU and brexit. You seem more like a hard core brexiteer than someone who has reservations about EU membership.

One minute you bemoan the negotiators not being real people,with real jobs or businessmen,then you say you want lawyers running the thing (which they already are to a degree) like hague who isn't a lawyer ....and on and on and on. And of course the euro superstate that the UK could have vetoed anyway as a member.

Enjoy your twix.