[ritchiebaby]

Devongone is right in what he says.

The EU will never change from within as there are too many bureaucrats with too much to lose - cosy little jobs for the rest of their days. They just might change when (if) we leave, but that's only because they will have been forced into it. In that case we will have done the remaining EU countries a great service.

[0762]

Yes, I'd agree with that premise up to a point but what a disservice to the country itself in favour of a flawed economic argument and likewise re the extreme political opinion - a disunited Kingdom that is politically flawed anyway!! You wanna read some of the shit RW nonsense re the EU that emanates from London media alone - some of it ties in with certain stuff that Devongone has uttered and it's mischievous and inaccurate but suits the shit politics in this country - reminds me of their antics in Scotland during referendum year 2014! Absolutely shameless and outrageous exaggerations but somehow draws an 'obedient audience' from within a democratic country! I scoff at the reasoning for leaving the EU and I'm delighted and unsurprised at the majority of Scottish opinion/voting being so different re brexit as well! As said previously, it just confirms how outward and 'worldly' Scotland has become in the multi-cultural society that we live in! I'd say we're very similar to London in certain respects and that is conveyed in a pro EU stance much like the London one! There was never enough good solid reasons to leave the EU and that's the crux of this whole debate - WHY ON EARTH WOULD WE 'CUT OFF OUR NOSES' TO SPITE OURSELVES!!! That's exactly what we are doing and these damn Tories are at the forefront of it!

[Devongone]

If I were a Scot or even allowed a vote on Scottish independence the only thing that would stop me voting for it would be Nicola Sturgeon (who I really admire) insisting on leaping into the EU and throwing away hundreds of years of hard rebellion. I wish I thought the pro-EU vote in Scotland represented a nation looking outward. I fear it is FEAR; that Scotland is running from nanny UK to mummy EU.

I want us to look outward but I don't want to be Frenglish or Engman either. I want us to celebrate ourselves and each other for what we are. If you love someone you don't only love the ways in which they are like you, you love the differences, you even see their bad points as mere idiosyncracies, as lovable!

We don't need to be part of a club to offer people the chance to be here, but we ought to know they are here so we can cater for them ...... and ourselves.

And how the xxxx do we ever rebel or protest when the power increasingly lies in Strasbourg?

[St Charles Owl]

I like the idea of staying in the EU to try to create change for the better but when have we ever really been able to do that?? We have always to some degree been seen as the bastard step child by the other members and when issues come up that we would like to see changed we get voted out by the other large nations who band together to block us. We have seen this happen numerous times over the years we have been in it.

As a person who was watching the referendum from afar, I still have yet to hear a coherent and persuasive argument as to why we should stay in the EU aside from the usual fear tactics of the dreadful state we will be in if we leave!! Not once has there been anything of substance relating to the benefits and future prosperity of Britain and other members by us staying in it.

And with regards to the media, who are we to believe these days?? How do we know what is the correct version of the facts or who has the best crystal ball to be able to accurately predict what will happen either way?? Everything that happens from here is unknown, its never been done and we only have opinions as to what the outcome will be and there are plenty of both sides of the argument. Which opinion you believe in the end will determine a lot of what you think will happen, but the future is unknown either way.

[hibeejim21]

Yeah,the EU has done nothing for us...nothing at all. Or has it?

Until 1998 when the EU Working Time Directive was introduced, 2 million British employees did not receive any paid holiday at all. And when they put a cap on the working week at 48hrs Westminster took them to court.

£730m of EU money is spent on research in the UK, much of which is channelled through universities,through which many students benefit via the ERASMUS scheme.

Rules on climate change and the environment improving our air quality and beaches – no small matter, given that it is one of the biggest causes of early death in our cities.

Our food and drinking water is also safer and cleaner thanks to EU labelling. The EU has also stopped tobacco companies chasing the business of youngsters keen to try out the habit, by regulating the way cigarettes are promoted. Again Westminster wasn't too keen.

Cheaper and easier travel to and in Europe. Free movement of people means there’s no hassle or extra cost involved in organising a visa before you travel. You can drive across the continent with a UK licence.

The EU broke the monopolies held by public telecoms operators and made calls cheaper. (80% since the mid 80s)

And that's just before I get to the commercial benefits. One final thing - Britain hasn't been able to change the EU from within because its stance has been so often to opt out and try and undermine the EU. The EU have indulged the UK at every turn to try and keep it in the union.

And that's before I get to the commercial benefits and the huge money they have invested in some of our poorest areas.

[St Charles Owl]

Not once have I said that the EU has done nothing for us!!!!!! I said I have yet to see a persuasive argument for why we should stay in the EU?? I have no doubt the EU has done many good things, but where were these points during the referendum??

[Devongone]

It is Donald Rumsfeld time - leaving is a vision of unknown unknowns.

One of the idiocies of this whole process is the pretence that negotiations start once Article 50 has been triggered. What do you think is happening now? This is just the informal bit of the interview where you confess to the receptionist you stood in cat-sick as you were leaving home and didn't have time to change your shoes - they DO really ask her how you came across you know! Oh the cat-sick one, we loved him!

The EU could have given Cameron something in negotiations to win him the referendum - but they didn't. They could have asked us to stay, or told us that they needed us - but they didn't. They could have waited for the negotiations proper to tell us we couldn't have the Single Market, even if we were a tutu and did a little dance - but they didn't. So now Mrs May tells us the bleeding obvious that she isn't going to try to get us what everyone with a brain cell knew we couldn't have anyway, and BANKERS of all people, having caused a financial crash and having had to be bailed out around the world, tell us, "Well now she's given us that awful non-news, we're setting up an office in Luxembourg and taking lots of jobs from London!" And these in-bred aristos-manque, who are too busy adjusting monocles to see beyond the ends of their noses are supposed to be the ****ing opinion-formers.

And in lieu of spray-on cream on top of this confection we seem taken with the opinions of Hollande's France (none of whom will be in power when we negotiate), the leader of Holland itself, who is due to lose to the far right before then too, and Malta which has 43 churches to look at and some very warm weather. Jeez!

[hibeejim21]

Not once have I said that the EU has done nothing for us!!!!!!  I said I have yet to see a persuasive argument for why we should stay in the EU??  I have no doubt the EU has done many good things, but where were these points during the referendum??

Is none of what I quoted persuasive? They are easily found facts.

These points were made,just drowned out by the howls of misinformation and right wing bile from the "take back control " crew.

Seems to me also the the EU gets slated for a lot of what Westminster is equally guilty of. Frankly id take the EU over Westminster any day.

[St Charles Owl]

Not once have I said that the EU has done nothing for us!!!!!!  I said I have yet to see a persuasive argument for why we should stay in the EU??  I have no doubt the EU has done many good things, but where were these points during the referendum??

Is none of what I quoted persuasive? They are easily found facts.

These points were made,just drowned out by the howls of misinformation and right wing bile from the "take back control " crew.

Seems to me also the the EU gets slated for a lot of what Westminster is equally guilty of. Frankly id take the EU over Westminster any day.

There are some good points in what you say but they all came at a cost as well!! But I am not sold on the notion that without us being part of the EU these things wouldn't have happened. Cigarette advertising on tv in the UK was banned in the 60s with further restrictions in the 70s, 80s and eventually a complete ban in 1990s under Blair government, I am not sure we needed the EU to get there with that legislation. Climate change is a worldwide issue and we would have been part of those talks with or without the EU, just as other countries were. But as i say, they are good points.

Going back to the referendum itself, I get the noise that was made by the leave campaign but the remain campaign needed to make noise of its own, it needed the points you made to be put in the public domain and it needed the support of the "airtime" politicians to be out there shouting about the good things. The reality was the remain campaign let the leave campaign dictate the debate virtually through the whole thing.

[0762]

Come on Saint Charles Owl!!! You ARE being a tad disingenuous re that dismissive response!!! Jim listed just a few of the 'good things' that the EU has attained or influenced within the UK and a lotta this stuff was drowned out by all the shameless RW scaremongering that was uttered by the likes of Johnson and Farage and others. I'd turn your insinuation on it's head and say I never perceived a persuasive argument to leave and that's from a Scottish perspective!! And Devongone, all I'd say to you is come to Scotland and study the culture and society that have evolved down the years, interlinked with the multi-culturalism that is embedded within it. We are still closely linked to Europe far more than you realise!! It's a historical fact and long may that association continue as well as an amicable association with our UK neighbours. The remain campaign was a dud, a misrepresentation by people who should've provided the stronger argument to remain in the UK!! Not so in Scotland and the end result, brexit, IMO was the wrong one anyway and millions n millions of people within our population strongly concur with that view that the 'UK ship is being sailed off course'!! Nicola Sturgeon is one of those detractors and she has consistently held the same line from July onwards. The debate ultimately centres on either a pro single market stance or being forced out of the EU and a sizeable proportion of our population share the former opinion/option! Perhaps we should've had a mandatory vote for once in the UK, just like Australia and certain other countries, and there's no doubt in my mind that the brexit vote would never have materialised and this whole contentious subject would not be debated at all!!