European Union Referendum - In or Out??

**St Charles Owl** · 07-10-2019, 02:09

And there lies part of the problem. Both of the responses by 0762 and Jim to Matt’s original post have given me more info and more clarity than anything I have ever seen out of the EU or the Remain campaign during the referendum. Its very easy to pull up one set of numbers and use them as a scare tactic by one side or the other, one of my problems with the EU is their lack of transparency or simple language to explain better what they do and what they bring to member countries. I am still sure the EU regret their decision to essentially stay neutral and not get involved in a referendum that will potentially damage them if we drop out with no deal.

**spireitematt** · 07-10-2019, 02:23

(07-10-2019, 00:20)hibeejim21 Wrote: Ahhh. The old brexiter trope about contributions returns, even at this late stage in the game.

How many times? The contribution must be weighed against the financial benefits of our access to the single market. In 2011, the UK government estimated this to be between £30 billion and £90 billion per year — so a return on investment of between 800% and 2370%. According to the CBI its worth about 3k to the average family in Britain.

Does that figure include the rebate ? Does it also consider that the European Commission also allocates funding directly to UK organisations, often following a competitive process. In recent years these funds have been worth around £1 billion - £2 billion to the UK.

As with all other members of the EU the UK is also a major shareholder in the European Investment Bank (EIB). It is the bank of the EU and works closely with the other EU governing bodies, investing in projects across Europe and around the world. I'm sure we have invested about 10 billion in it.

So you don't have to look far to see where the money is going.

It's not trope or tripe.

The rebate runs out in 2021-2022 even if we stay in as it will for Denmark and Netherlands. We pay £50 million a day, £350 million a week, £12 billion a year with the rebate but without the rebate it would be closer to around £16-£17 billion a year.

Getting 38p off the back of a £1 investment is bad business and bad economics and if any business traded like that in the real World then they would face going under. We are losing out on 62p for every £1 we send to the EU, where is the money going? 0762 is making assumptions on where the money is going and doesn't really know himself and you say that you don't have to look far to see where the money is going. Why don't the EU have a proper breakdown sheet of where the money goes? Why won't they be upfront about it? Something to hide possibly? None of us know where the money is going, the only people who know are the one's who work inside the EU, for all we know they could be creaming it off for themselves.

You hear the European Prime Ministers and Presidents in interviews on TV and they seem to be more worried about the EU losing the big hole to fill in the budget if we ever leave. Also as it stands the EU is 28 countries and they want to eventually expand it to 34-36 countries, the more countries which join the EU the bigger the contributions will be from France, Germany, UK (if we don't leave) and Italy.

Look at the Eurozone all signs are it's heading to another recession and crash and the ECB is trying to prop it up and bail out the Euro like it has done since the last Eurozone crisis.

hibeejim21 · 07-10-2019, 08:30

(07-10-2019, 02:23)spireitematt Wrote:
(07-10-2019, 00:20)hibeejim21 Wrote: Ahhh. The old brexiter trope about contributions returns, even at this late stage in the game.

How many times? The contribution must be weighed against the financial benefits of our access to the single market. In 2011, the UK government estimated this to be between £30 billion and £90 billion per year — so a return on investment of between 800% and 2370%. According to the CBI its worth about 3k to the average family in Britain.

Does that figure include the rebate ? Does it also consider that the European Commission also allocates funding directly to UK organisations, often following a competitive process. In recent years these funds have been worth around £1 billion - £2 billion to the UK.

As with all other members of the EU the UK is also a major shareholder in the European Investment Bank (EIB). It is the bank of the EU and works closely with the other EU governing bodies, investing in projects across Europe and around the world. I'm sure we have invested about 10 billion in it.

So you don't have to look far to see where the money is going.

It's not trope or tripe.

The rebate runs out in 2021-2022 even if we stay in as it will for Denmark and Netherlands. We pay £50 million a day, £350 million a week, £12 billion a year with the rebate but without the rebate it would be closer to around £16-£17 billion a year.

Getting 38p off the back of a £1 investment is bad business and bad economics and if any business traded like that in the real World then they would face going under. We are losing out on 62p for every £1 we send to the EU, where is the money going? 0762 is making assumptions on where the money is going and doesn't really know himself and you say that you don't have to look far to see where the money is going. Why don't the EU have a proper breakdown sheet of where the money goes? Why won't they be upfront about it? Something to hide possibly? None of us know where the money is going, the only people who know are the one's who work inside the EU, for all we know they could be creaming it off for themselves.

You hear the European Prime Ministers and Presidents in interviews on TV and they seem to be more worried about the EU losing the big hole to fill in the budget if we ever leave. Also as it stands the EU is 28 countries and they want to eventually expand it to 34-36 countries, the more countries which join the EU the bigger the contributions will be from France, Germany, UK (if we don't leave) and Italy.

Look at the Eurozone all signs are it's heading to another recession and crash and the ECB is trying to prop it up and bail out the Euro like it has done since the last Eurozone crisis.

The EU do provide a proper breakdown, you can google it. A return of our investment of over 800% is bad business ? Laugh

Dearie me.

42 billion on agriculture and fisheries
41 billion on development of poorer nations
10 billion on research and development

Thats just the main ones. The biggest beneficiaries are Europes farmers, as you can see in the news the UKs are finally realising what no deal will do to them.

We get a lot, lot more back in investment and jobs for that 62p.

0762 · (This post was last modified: 08-10-2019, 00:31 by 0762.)

Well said Jim. I said in my previous thread that I was assuming much of the areas of financial activity within the EU mainly because I don't have access to what would be a huge list of projects, developments, investments etc throughout the EU. They are real and I know this because I have a close contact who works on EU affairs and business and one can indeed glean a lotta information on said EU outgoings and it is not as "non-transparent" as being suggested by Matt!!??? IMO that is being a tad disingenuous to suit a certain argument that is flawed TBF!! A lot of that kinda info can be acquired.

**St Charles Owl** · 08-10-2019, 01:23

(08-10-2019, 00:29)0762 Wrote: Well said Jim. I said in my previous thread that I was assuming much of the areas of financial activity within the EU mainly because I don't have access to what would be a huge list of projects, developments, investments etc throughout the EU. They are real and I know this because I have a close contact who works on EU affairs and business and one can indeed glean a lotta information on said EU outgoings and it is not as "non-transparent" as being suggested by Matt!!??? IMO that is being a tad disingenuous to suit a certain argument that is flawed TBF!! A lot of that kinda info can be acquired.

While I have no doubt you are correct with the money that comes back to the UK from the EU for a variety of initiatives and while I accept they do publish this info some where, it still irks me that they stood back during the referendum that could see their 2nd biggest member leave without making it blatantly clear what benefits the UK get from the EU!! I know its a fine line when “interfering” with the internal politics of a member but they should have made sure we were bombarded with this sort of info instead of letting Farage and BJ craft the daily message with their constant lies!! That lack of self promoting or marketing or whatever it would be called is part of the problem with the EU and its one of the reasons why the counter argument can be difficult to refute.

**spireitematt** · 08-10-2019, 02:04

In 2018 the Government spent £864.9 billion on all aspects of public spending.

Our gross contribution to the EU in 2018 was £20 billion, but we got an abatement of £4.5 billion which means £15.5 billion was transferred from the UK Government to the EU in official payments. This only accounts for the money that we pay to the EU as some of the £15.5 billion is credited back to the UK public sector but a proportion of it is paid into the private sector.

£4.5 billion came back into the UK public sector as credits in 2018. £2.2 billion came through a fund called the 'Agricultural Guarantee Fund' and £700 million came back through a fund called the 'European Regional Development Fund'. The net contribution we made in 2018 was £11 billion when you take away the £4.5 billion for EU funded public sector credits and £4.5 billion for abatement.

From 2014-2018 the average net contribution to the EU from the UK was £7.8 billion, the EU funded public sector credits we got back was on average £5.6 billion and the abatement on average was £4.6 billion. The net flow of money flowing from the UK to the EU in 2018 was £8.6 billion.

The £11 billion net contribution figure for 2018 works out at £212 million a week, £166 per person per year, 0.45p per person per day and is 1.3% of Government spending.

The £7.8 billion net contribution figure between 2014-2018 works out at £150 million a week, £117 per person per year, 0.32 per person per day and is 0.9% of Government spending.

In 2018 the Department for International Development paid £452 million in overseas aid via EU institutions while the UK Government paid £951 million which counts to all overseas aid.

What the EU gives UK.

UK Charge for collecting duties and levies (net)1 = £669 million
Agricultural Guarantee Fund2 = £220.2 million
European Social Fund = £295 million
Other EU Receipts = £147 million
Agricultural Fund For Regional Development3 = £503 million
European Regional Development Fund = £676 million

Total £4.492 Billion

What the EU takes off the UK.

Customs Duties and Agricultural Levies4 = £333.5 million
Sugar Levies4 = £8 million
VAT Based Contribution5 = £30.75 million
*VAT Adjustment5 = -£15.0 million
GNI Own Resource6 = £142.65 million
*GNI Adjustment6 = = -£8.21 million
*Fontainebleau Adjustment = -£44.51 million
Total GNI Based Fourth Own Resource Contribution = £89.93 million
Other Secondary income to EU institutions = £258 million

Total £15.519 billion but take away the £4.492 billion they give us back and this is the balance at the end of it. *Balance (UK net position with EU institutions)7 = -£11.027 billion

*By the way the negative balances means the UK pays more to the EU than it receives back.

hibeejim21 · 08-10-2019, 10:06

(08-10-2019, 01:23)St Charles Owl Wrote:
(08-10-2019, 00:29)0762 Wrote: Well said Jim. I said in my previous thread that I was assuming much of the areas of financial activity within the EU mainly because I don't have access to what would be a huge list of projects, developments, investments etc throughout the EU. They are real and I know this because I have a close contact who works on EU affairs and business and one can indeed glean a lotta information on said EU outgoings and it is not as "non-transparent" as being suggested by Matt!!??? IMO that is being a tad disingenuous to suit a certain argument that is flawed TBF!! A lot of that kinda info can be acquired.

While I have no doubt you are correct with the money that comes back to the UK from the EU for a variety of initiatives and while I accept they do publish this info some where, it still irks me that they stood back during the referendum that could see their 2nd biggest member leave without making it blatantly clear what benefits the UK get from the EU!! I know its a fine line when “interfering” with the internal politics of a member but they should have made sure we were bombarded with this sort of info instead of letting Farage and BJ craft the daily message with their constant lies!! That lack of self promoting or marketing or whatever it would be called is part of the problem with the EU and its one of the reasons why the counter argument can be difficult to refute.

They stood back at Camerons request.

Each country pays the same proportion of its national income to the EU budget, so richer countries pay more and poorer ones less, that's the way its supposed to be FFS. The biggest beneficiaries are agriculture - the food we eat as europeans - and the poorer nations Poland,hungary,romania etc. It's in Europe and the worlds benefit for them to be stronger and industrious....poland is already making huge strides. Brexit voters always bring up the contributions issue like its some huge shocker, it's an absolute nonsense.

I was in cornwall in the summer and I was struck by the amount and diversity of EU projects there all clearly signposted. Good luck getting that kind of investment from the tories.

But it's all nothing compared to how we benefit from the single market. What will we replace it with that's better and provides more value ?

I keep saying this but a lot of the English don't seem to grasp that after we crash out and the tax dodgers have their assets stashed away from investigation and the disaster capitalists have made their killing we will be cutting a deal with the EU as soon as we can (the eu one with Canada took 7 years) and will be back to square one, and we will be subject to EU law throughout the whole mess.

hibeejim21 · 08-10-2019, 12:24

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po...46386.html

0762 · (This post was last modified: 08-10-2019, 13:41 by 0762.)

£66B poorer!! Imagine what many of our poorer communities in the north of England, and elsewhere, could've done with this money to improve their communities, social welfare, social care, education etc - mind-boggling and a total waste - EAT YOUR HEART OUT DAVID CAMERON, YOU F###### MORON!!! Add to that the IFS commenting that British debt and borrowing after a "no deal" Brexit will be the highest since the 1960s!! WTF are we doing other than playing a huge RW Tory "political game" to f### up the country and Ireland under some mistaken banner re "taking back our country (England!!!!!!) from the nasty EU"????????? An absolute disgrace and economically damaging is an understatement!!
Listen to the quote by Angela Merkel - "We are down to a blame game" and Juncker said this morning: "You don't want a deal, you don't want an extension, you don't want to revoke, WHERE DO YOU WANNA GO MR JOHNSON, QUO VADIS"???? HE WANTS A NO DEAL BECAUSE THAT WAS ALWAYS THIS FASCIST GOVERNMENT'S AGENDA AS SOON AS JOHNSON WAS PLACED IN HIS UNELECTED POSITION OF PM IN THE SUMMER ALONGSIDE ALL HIS RICH RW TORY PALS AND BACKERS WHO HAVE MILLIONS N MILLIONS OF POUNDS ROLLING ON THIS POSS "HEIST"!!!!! IMO it is time to set up an emergency British govt asap but time and opposition consensus are running out fast.

hibeejim21 · (This post was last modified: 08-10-2019, 20:37 by hibeejim21.)

Shameless stuff from a disgraced UK government being run by Steve Bannon. More and more extreme language, particularly anti German.

I'd rather pay the EU more on the pound than let trump and their fascist fuckwits have sway over the UK.

As much as Corbyn bugs me, only labour are offering a path out ....SNP agree and say they will back it as a fucked England is no good to an independent scotland....but the English are so crazed about some imaginary injustice we are going to crash out.

I want my Scottish passport.

Also again I add, my job is on the line here and obviously lots of others.

I don't care if the UK's contribution ends in junckers drink trolley.....I just want to look after my family.