[St Charles Owl]

Disagree with you on this. One of the biggest problems with the LP under Corbyn was their inability to get off the damn fence with regards to Brexit and this is what cost them at the GE. While you may not agree with his stance on Scottish independence, the fact that he has a firm stance at all is a move forward for Labour. Scotland still seems to be fairly well split on the subject according to the latest opinion polls with Yes to Indy have a slight lead, so if those polls are correct there is a good proportion of the population that may support a Labour partly who are taking this stance, and in theory Labour could become the 2nd party to the SNP and the main opposition to them. Politically at this stage I think this is the best move they could make.

[0762]

Wrong Saint Charles Owl - by a country mile. That may be your opinion but you don't live in Scotland and that is a pipe dream - a meagre hope that Labour members will be duped again by such a stance!! For starters, they have a Scot Labour leader who really is a non-entity, together with his depute leader who is another total lightweight with no standing in Scotland whatsoever! Totally wrong and I'd say you'd be better applying such an opinion to an electorate south of the border. A recent Panelbase poll for the ScotGoesPop blog confirmed that about 40% of Labour voters in Scotland would back independence in another referendum. Also another poll confirmed that 56% of Labour voters believe the Scottish govt's handling of the pandemic gives them greater confidence in the ability of an independent Scotland to be a well-governed nation. There are a lotta indicators that say the exact opposite of what you are inferring and that is even when the Scot indy issue is effectively on hold at the mo while the Unionist parties up here are still trying to play crass politics in the background during this crisis - absolutely disgraceful and it just sums them up for what they are!! A lotta Scot Labour members/"floaters" are not stupid and will be watching and listening to this shit as much as I and other Scot voters are doing the same and that is a fact because we live here and are witnessing what is happening "first hand". The words "wishful thinking" come to mind and btw Starmer's federalist idea just won't "wash" up here either but he has another 4 years to "stew" anyway.

[St Charles Owl]

I'm not sure where you think I am wrong?? As you say 40% of Labour voters would vote for independence, so by that I assume 60% wouldn't currently vote for it or are undecided. National polls, the latest being last week, say 48% were in favour of independence, with 45% against and 8% undecided. on that basis the Labour party has aligned itself with potentially 53% of the electorate. No matter what side of this debate he positions the Labour party he stands to alienate a portion of the party, just the same as Corbyn would have done with Brexit, but at least past Labour supporters now know where they stand, something that couldn't be said for Corbyn.

I wasn't saying he was right to do this or that I agree with his decision, but part of politics is clarity on policy decisions and unlike Corbyn he has just given this one topic clarity. The quality of his team up there is not being debated by me nor is COVID-19 a factor.

[hibeejim21]

Disagree with you on this.  One of the biggest problems with the LP under Corbyn was their inability to get off the damn fence with regards to Brexit and this is what cost them at the GE.  While you may not agree with his stance on Scottish independence, the fact that he has a firm stance at all is a move forward for Labour.  Scotland still seems to be fairly well split on the subject according to the latest opinion polls with Yes to Indy have a slight lead, so if those polls are correct there is a good proportion of the population that may support a Labour partly who are taking this stance, and in theory Labour could become the 2nd party to the SNP and the main opposition to them.  Politically at this stage I think this is the best move they could make.

I'm not sure what labour will achieve by going in harder against independence SCO, They might win back some old, wealthy and hardcore loyalists voters from the Tories, but to what end? The Tories poll about 25% and Lab about 15% in Scotland right now - Is getting that up to 20% worth alienating themselves further from half the electorate for ?

Plus Scottish labour is an absolute joke, Doubling down on the stance that has almost wiped them out up here is not a good move.

[St Charles Owl]

Disagree with you on this.  One of the biggest problems with the LP under Corbyn was their inability to get off the damn fence with regards to Brexit and this is what cost them at the GE.  While you may not agree with his stance on Scottish independence, the fact that he has a firm stance at all is a move forward for Labour.  Scotland still seems to be fairly well split on the subject according to the latest opinion polls with Yes to Indy have a slight lead, so if those polls are correct there is a good proportion of the population that may support a Labour partly who are taking this stance, and in theory Labour could become the 2nd party to the SNP and the main opposition to them.  Politically at this stage I think this is the best move they could make.

I'm not sure what labour will achieve by going in harder against independence SCO,  They might win back some old, wealthy and hardcore loyalists voters from the Tories, but to what end?  The Tories poll about 25% and Lab about 15% in Scotland right now - Is getting that up to 20% worth alienating themselves further from half the electorate for ?

Plus Scottish labour is an absolute joke, Doubling down on the stance that has almost wiped them out up here is not a good move.

I don't know either what they will achieve but decisions about policy are not taken lightly on topics like this and either he is a staunch fan of the UK or he feels that Labour has more to gain by taking this stance politically. At the moment the party is in the toilet in Scotland, a policy decision like this aligns them with approx half of the population as we stand, maybe he thinks that will get them off life support in Scotland.

[hibeejim21]

Disagree with you on this.  One of the biggest problems with the LP under Corbyn was their inability to get off the damn fence with regards to Brexit and this is what cost them at the GE.  While you may not agree with his stance on Scottish independence, the fact that he has a firm stance at all is a move forward for Labour.  Scotland still seems to be fairly well split on the subject according to the latest opinion polls with Yes to Indy have a slight lead, so if those polls are correct there is a good proportion of the population that may support a Labour partly who are taking this stance, and in theory Labour could become the 2nd party to the SNP and the main opposition to them.  Politically at this stage I think this is the best move they could make.

I'm not sure what labour will achieve by going in harder against independence SCO,  They might win back some old, wealthy and hardcore loyalists voters from the Tories, but to what end?  The Tories poll about 25% and Lab about 15% in Scotland right now - Is getting that up to 20% worth alienating themselves further from half the electorate for ?

Plus Scottish labour is an absolute joke, Doubling down on the stance that has almost wiped them out up here is not a good move.

I don't know either what they will achieve but decisions about policy are not taken lightly on topics like this and either he is a staunch fan of the UK or he feels that Labour has more to gain by taking this stance politically.  At the moment the party is in the toilet in Scotland, a policy decision like this aligns them with approx half of the population as we stand, maybe he thinks that will get them off life support in Scotland.

A smarter move would be to be more conciliatory towards independence and attract back a lot of soft SNP voters who aren't hugely sold on going it alone yet. It's not a good look for Scottish labour to be aligning themselves with the tories right now.

[0762]

Lets be frank about this - Leonard and his Scot Labour cronies have consistently come over as staunch unionists bordering on extreme unionism/fanaticism - very unhealthy within a party that has its own MSPs who do not agree with a dictatorial position that says WE ARE NOT DEMOCRATICALLY ALLOWING YOU, THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE, TO HOLD A REFERENDUM BECAUSE YOU MAY VOTE THE WRONG WAY - SOME F###### DEMOCRATIC STAND THAT IS AND MEMBERS WITHIN THEIR OWN PARTY HAVE RIGHTLY DISAGREED AND SAID DIFFERENTLY!! Couple that to Scot Labour's other previous covert actions to ally with the f###### Tories and they deserve to be "wiped off" the political map in Scotland - outrageous undemocratic and disrespectful comments made down the years and ignoring a big chunk of people who were Labour supporters but believe in Scot independence and the democratic right to choose!!! Their political demise spans back just under 20 years, a period that saw some of the most non-descript Scot Labour leaders you could ever observe or listen to incl one (Angela Lamont) who quit commenting that she was fed up being dictated to by Labour head office in Westminster - another reason why I'd never "touch them with a barge pole"!!! - No genuine interest in Scotland whatsoever, the same as the scumbag Tories and Lib Dems up here!! It is amazing that there are still a few people up here that believe otherwise???? Freedom of choice eh but it is still NUTS!!

[St Charles Owl]

Disagree with you on this.  One of the biggest problems with the LP under Corbyn was their inability to get off the damn fence with regards to Brexit and this is what cost them at the GE.  While you may not agree with his stance on Scottish independence, the fact that he has a firm stance at all is a move forward for Labour.  Scotland still seems to be fairly well split on the subject according to the latest opinion polls with Yes to Indy have a slight lead, so if those polls are correct there is a good proportion of the population that may support a Labour partly who are taking this stance, and in theory Labour could become the 2nd party to the SNP and the main opposition to them.  Politically at this stage I think this is the best move they could make.

I'm not sure what labour will achieve by going in harder against independence SCO,  They might win back some old, wealthy and hardcore loyalists voters from the Tories, but to what end?  The Tories poll about 25% and Lab about 15% in Scotland right now - Is getting that up to 20% worth alienating themselves further from half the electorate for ?

Plus Scottish labour is an absolute joke, Doubling down on the stance that has almost wiped them out up here is not a good move.

I don't know either what they will achieve but decisions about policy are not taken lightly on topics like this and either he is a staunch fan of the UK or he feels that Labour has more to gain by taking this stance politically.  At the moment the party is in the toilet in Scotland, a policy decision like this aligns them with approx half of the population as we stand, maybe he thinks that will get them off life support in Scotland.

A smarter move would be to be more conciliatory towards independence and attract back a lot of soft SNP voters who aren't hugely sold on going it alone yet.  It's not a good look for Scottish labour to be aligning themselves with the tories right now.

Maybe, time will tell if he has this one right or not and I suppose on the whole Labour currently has nothing to lose in Scotland anyway. I think making a stand on their stance, even if it is the same as the Tories, gives them a chance to challenge the SNP to at least try to provide a distinct alternative to them in the seats that Labour have lost to the SNP over the past 20 years. Personally I don't think it will work but at least voters know where the party now stands.

[hibeejim21]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/polit...n=sharebar

This poll makes labours stance in Scotland seem even more baffling.

[0762]

They deserved that "thumbs down" response and I base that on the totally undemocratic comments uttered by some of their biggest offenders like Ian Murray. They don't want any threat to their preciooouuuusssssssss union and I'd like them to just say it explicitly thereby splitting off a good proportion of people who supported them at one time but don't agree with their obsessive "direction of travel" and the way that they are trying to "force it down people's throats" with no respect for Scotland or its citizens - absolutely disgraceful and they can GTF!!! Moving away from Scot Labour's consistent "out of touch" approach, I must mention there are initial moves up here to formulate a written constitution for Scotland. This being done by a registered charity named Constitution for Scotland which comprises a group of well-disposed Scots whose template will enable a readily accessible debate via the web and other media. This group is not connected to any political organisation and its website will be launched later on in the summer. It will provide a skeletal outline for Scotland's future detailed policy doc. The proposals include:- Fundamental laws that define the state, establishing and regulating institutions, protection for the rights of all citizens and the natural ecosystem by authorising the extent of powers available to the govt, setting a framework for social justice, authorising the currency and the Govt's fiscal powers, providing a legal framework for the governance and wellbeing of the people of Scotland and for the world in which we live, a decentralised, proportionally representative form of govt with national, regional and community levels - each with clearly defined autonomous powers, thus providing for effective decision-making at the most appropriate level, that all candidates for election be selected at constituency level and elected using the single transferable vote system. The "template" WCS has been formulated to stimulate debate on specific proposals rather than vague notions, but isn't prescriptive. IMO it is time to leave the Scot Labour Party and their allied unionist Tories (when it comes to anything relative to the dreaded Scot indy issue!) and their backward "out of touch" policies, well behind to push on with far more positivity than these political dinosaurs could ever muster up here.