[spireitematt]

Come out this evening that Johnson is going to except chlorinated chicken from America, which means we will import in there hormone beef as well and there other foods. As it stands we can tell where our food comes from due to the red tractor and British flag on produce, US trade deals require that no food has its country of origin; you won't be able to tell if your food comes from the UK, the US, or anywhere else in the world. We have the highest food standards higher than the US and the EU and it sounds like we will be throwing it away to have the same food standards as the US.

There were and still are legitimate arguments for leaving the EU but the reasons why I didn't vote Leave in the EU referendum is because I didn't trust a Tory Brexit. I didn't trust what Gove, Johnson etc were spouting at the time and still don't. At the time I had an inkling that they had something up there sleeve. There 'Brexit' was never about taking back control etc, it was about lowering standards in this country and selling the country down the river to the highest bidder. It started with Thatcher and it will end with them. We've had 41 years of neo-liberal Governments who have sold things off and privatised everything off.

[hibeejim21]

"There were and still are legitimate arguments for leaving the EU"


Naah Matt. There weren't any legitimate arguments for making ourselves 80 billion quid poorer, shafting our farmers and fishermen, crippling our car manufacturing or making ourselves a shittier satellite version of trumps USA. Couldn't have been about ridding ourselves of unelected power either or Cummings wouldn't be running the show...... The whole Brexit vote fiasco was entirely based on English exceptionalism and fear of immigration, and of course Boris now has the gates opened for millions of citizens from Hong Kong and probably next it will be India. Hypocritical as xxxx. That very same exceptionalism is still writ large today, even after 60k deaths from the mishandling of COVID. A no deal Brexit blamed on COVID is ideal cover for Boris and keeps the baying, daily mail reading minority feeling safe in their small little worlds, perpetually celebrating victory in wars they never fought in.

A no deal Brexit has always been the desired outcome from the right wing idiots running the show now. I've long said it on here, these vulture capitalists behind 'leave' have bet against the UK big time and they are about to get very, very rich with zero scrutiny while the shit heads the way of the rest of us faster than Classic Dom xxxx off up the A1. You are right, they are going to deregulate the xxxx out of everything including the NHS.

Chlorinated chicken is going to be the least of the UKs problems in the coming years. We aren't taking back control, we are giving it all on a silver salver to some of the most horrible, unscrupulous bastards you could ever meet.

Our children will look back on this with horror and embarrassment.

[spireitematt]

"There were and still are legitimate arguments for leaving the EU"


Naah Matt. There weren't any legitimate arguments for making ourselves 80 billion quid poorer, shafting our farmers and fishermen, crippling our car manufacturing or making ourselves a shittier satellite version of trumps USA. Couldn't have been about ridding ourselves of unelected power either or Cummings wouldn't be running the show...... The whole Brexit vote fiasco was entirely based on English exceptionalism and fear of immigration, and of course Boris now has the gates opened for millions of citizens from Hong Kong and probably next it will be India. Hypocritical as xxxx. That very same exceptionalism is still writ large today, even after 60k deaths from the mishandling of COVID. A no deal Brexit blamed on COVID is ideal cover for Boris and keeps the baying, daily mail reading minority feeling safe in their small little worlds, perpetually celebrating victory in wars they never fought in.

A no deal Brexit has always been the desired outcome from the right wing idiots running the show now. I've long said it on here, these vulture capitalists behind 'leave'  have bet against the UK big time and they are about to get very, very rich with zero scrutiny while the shit heads the way of the rest of us faster than Classic Dom xxxx off up the A1. You are right,  they are going to deregulate the xxxx out of everything including the NHS.

Chlorinated chicken is going to be the least of the UKs problems in the coming years. We aren't taking back control, we are giving it all on a silver salver to some of the most horrible, unscrupulous bastards you could ever meet.

Our children will look back on this with horror and embarrassment.

Seeing as you are a Scottish independence supporter, you do realise that if the vote back in 2014 had gone Yes and Scotland had voted to leave the UK then you would have left the EU as well and Scotland would have then be made to go through the process of joining the EU again. Then you have Sturgeon who wants Scotland to leave the UK without a deal while campaigning against Britain leaving the EU without a deal. The 2016 referendum was counted on the most votes not on what area voted what way, so those people who voted Leave in Scotland there voted counted to the final total. SNP and Sturgeon doesn't speak for the whole of Scotland like Boris Johnson doesn't speak for the whole of the UK.

Like I said in my previous post, we've had 41 years of neo-liberal Governments and then you have the EU which is neo-liberal as well, which is predominately right wing and which has implemented austerity policies along with wanting to change workers rights (Look at Macron in France where he tried to change the pension ages and change workers rights and take on the unions and the people protested and revolted). People like George Galloway, Tony Benn and Jeremy Corbyn wanted to escape the clutches of the neo-liberal EU but the Leave campaign was hijacked by Right wingers, fascists and disaster capitalists which fed racism and immigration and you never got to hear the left wing reasons for leaving the EU.

Back in 1973 when Ted Heath took the UK into the then EEC it was sold as a trading bloc with the rest of Europe and then in 1975 there was a referendum on the membership of the EEC and 60% voted to stay in the trading bloc and it continued to be a trading bloc and then in 1992 when John Major signed the Maastricht treaty for further integration and to become a cohesive economic and political bloc without a referendum that's when the views changed and up until 2016 the people didn't like the way the EU was heading and wanted a vote on the matter and they got it. Not everyone who voted to Leave the EU is a racist but I suspect there are racists who did vote Leave for immigration and they were duped because even before we were in the EEC/ EU we've always had immigration to this county and we will continue to have immigration to this country after we are out of the EU.

The way that the Tories have handled the Brexit negotiations and the Coronavirus crisis has been a farce from the beginning. They have lied to the public and treated us like idiots, they've contradicted themselves several times thinking we haven't noticed what's going on. Once we eventually get through this pandemic we will all remember what happened and I suspect a lot more people will hold this Government to account in their actions.

Politics in the UK and the US and across the World is becoming too partisan and too tribal, too many people see themselves as Remain or Leave or Labour or Tory or Left wing vs Right wing. There is no common sense anymore or any real dialogue or debate, it's just name calling and everyone thinking that they are right and that there opinion matters more than someone else's and that's where the silent majority come in. People who don't voice their opinions or views on social media or in person because they are worried about being put down or ridiculed so they keep quiet until there is an election and they use their voice, opinion and view by putting an X in their chosen box on the ballot paper. Dialogue, debate and listening to one another and understanding different opinions and views is the only we can move forward as a country and as one.

Like I said on another thread people can agree or disagree with my opinions or view points as that's what makes us all different. It would be a very boring World if we all had the same opinion and view.

[0762]

Thread #333 - Then you have Sturgeon who wants Scotland to leave the UK without a deal while campaigning against Britain leaving the EU without a deal. The 2016 referendum was counted on the most votes not on what area voted what way, so those people who voted Leave in Scotland there voted counted to the final total. SNP and Sturgeon doesn't speak for the whole of Scotland like Boris Johnson doesn't speak for the whole of the UK.

I must comment on some of these remarks - 1. The Scottish FM has never professed to split from the UK without a deal. That is untrue and I'd challenge anyone to show proof otherwise. Nicola Sturgeon has previously professed that an independent Scotland still becomes a good neighbour and trading partner with other UK nations and that includes England. Also in a practical sense a trade partnership/deal of some sort was always in order because cross-border trade could never realistically be blocked anyway. 2. Nicola Sturgeon represents a sovereign country called Scotland and the interests of the Scottish people - stop resurrecting that old "wind up" regional chestnut as previously done in another OP's threads - that debate has been exhausted a long time ago!!
On the subject of Brexit, it has been debated to exhaustion again on another thread but I'll briefly add my "tuppence worth" to Jim's vg comments re the Brexit "lie":- What characterises Brexiteers and Scottish Unionists is their willingness to embrace and applaud what they know are blatant lies from those they know are blatant liars. They are knowingly and actively  engaged in a collective enterprise in self-deception as the biggest lie that this COVID-19 virus has exposed - the lie that we are a United Kingdom and Brexit, Johnson and the Tory govt exposed for the lie and fraud that they represent and the danger that they pose to all of us. Brexit has been an exercise in irrationality bordering on a form of national madness; lets not forget the highly questionable role and behaviour of that English fascist/racist, Farage, either. There maybe a rational argument for exiting the European Union but it descends into irrationality and madness when its supporters rely on, and embrace, a campaign of lies, disinformation, and the demonization of foreigners to justify it. On that note, the virus has exposed the contempt, bordering on hatred, Westminster and the Tories in particular, harbour for Scotland, a contempt that also embraces the Welsh and Northern Irish, but whose deepest animus is for the Scots. Btw Johnson and his cohorts were able to achieve Brexit because, starting with Thatcher, the Westminster elite, led by the Tories and their propagandists (serial critics of the EU for the past 4 decades!) in the media, led a relentless drive to eliminate the human characteristics of sympathy and empathy from the British system of political economy. For their free market experiment to succeed, these attributes had to be purged from the public sphere and unashamed selfishness and crass politics prevailed as witnessed up to now.

[hibeejim21]

Then you have Sturgeon who wants Scotland to leave the UK without a deal while campaigning against Britain leaving the EU without a deal

As said no one ....ever.

...and then you have the EU which is neo-liberal as well, which is predominately right wing and which has implemented austerity policies along with wanting to change workers rights

So did new labour ffs and they supported austerity

People like George Galloway, Tony Benn and Jeremy Corbyn wanted to escape the clutches of the neo-liberal EU

But not the socialist governments of Spain and Portugal oddly.

Not everyone who voted to Leave the EU is a racist

But not many racists voted for remain that's for sure


I'm not sure what matt is arguing for. He sounds like a repentant leave voter to me, and if he is good on him. But this conflating of Scottish independence with brexit doesn't make any sense.

[ritchiebaby]

PHE this week issued a report which confirmed this week that people from ethnic minorities are at higher risk of dying from coronavirus. The report showed that age remains the biggest risk factor, while being male is another.

Labour's shadow equalities minister Marsha De Cordova called for an action plan, adding: "The government must not wait any longer to address underlying racial and socioeconomic injustices, so that no more lives are lost." Absolute garbage. She seems to be saying that BAME people cannot understand the basic premise that the best way to fight the virus is to be as healthy and/or safe as possible. I am a white elderly man and have potentially underlying health conditions and I manage to take extra precautions to protect myself. No guarantee in this bit I'm giving myself a better chance. At yesterday's press conference, a BBC reporter took the same attitude about BAME people, ie wait for the Government to do something

Surely BAME people should be encouraged to look after themselves. Whether Government or NHS , do it yourself as much as possible.

[spireitematt]

Then you have Sturgeon who wants Scotland to leave the UK without a deal while campaigning against Britain leaving the EU without a deal

As said no one ....ever.

...and then you have the EU which is neo-liberal as well, which is predominately right wing and which has implemented austerity policies along with wanting to change workers rights

So did new labour ffs and they supported austerity  

People like George Galloway, Tony Benn and Jeremy Corbyn wanted to escape the clutches of the neo-liberal EU

But not the socialist governments of Spain and Portugal oddly.  

Not everyone who voted to Leave the EU is a racist

But not many racists voted for remain that's for sure  


I'm not sure what matt is arguing for. He sounds like a repentant leave voter to me, and if he is good on him. But this conflating of Scottish independence with brexit doesn't make any sense.

Read what I said. I said 41 years of neo-liberal Governments, 41 years ago was 1979, that included New Labour in that comment as well. I am not a repentant leave voter as I never voted leave. I am a eurosceptic who voted Remain because I didn't trust a Tory Brexit, I didn't trust what Johnson and Gove were telling people.

It's nice to know you know my mind better than me and what I'm thinking. You know nothing of me or what my views or opinions are. You come across as sanctimonious and self-righteous.

[hibeejim21]

To be fair though matt its hard to know what your mind is because it seems like its all over the shop. You more than anyone on here has argued with passion the case for brexit and argued the farage/daily mail narratives even when they were shown to be bullshit.

I'm not trying to have a go at you, I just genuinely don't know what your trying to say. If I was as eurosceptic as you seem to be no way would I have voted remain.

And its not particularly Neo-liberalism thats the problem here.....The EU is less Neo-liberal than the conservatives, in that it at least tries to make big organisations pay tax and look after the environment. Anyway even if that wasn't so leaving the EU wouldn't change the course of the ship. If anything it would make us more vulnerable to neoliberal pressures.

[St Charles Owl]

PHE this week issued a report which confirmed this week that people from ethnic minorities are at higher risk of dying from coronavirus. The report showed that age remains the biggest risk factor, while being male is another.

Labour's shadow equalities minister Marsha De Cordova called for an action plan, adding: "The government must not wait any longer to address underlying racial and socioeconomic injustices, so that no more lives are lost." Absolute garbage. She seems to be saying that BAME people cannot understand the basic premise that the best way to fight the virus is to be as healthy and/or safe as possible. I am a white elderly man and have potentially underlying health conditions and I manage to take extra precautions to protect myself. No guarantee in this bit I'm giving myself a better chance. At yesterday's press conference, a BBC reporter took the same attitude about BAME people, ie wait for the Government to do something

Surely BAME people should be encouraged to look after themselves. Whether Government or NHS , do it yourself as much as possible.

I have heard the same thing over here with regards to ethnic minorities being higher risk. What I have yet to see are the reasons why this is the case? I am guessing a certain amount of it is general health, poverty, lack of healthcare options (obviously a big problem here rather than the UK) and the fact that they are more likely in lower grade jobs such as checkout personnel at supermarkets or cleaners at hospitals, so have had to work throughout this pandemic. But is there anything genetically that makes them more at risk or is it just lifestyle either by choice or circumstance?

[spireitematt]

To be fair though matt its hard to know what your mind is because it seems like its all over the shop. You more than anyone on here has argued with passion the case for brexit and argued the farage/daily mail narratives even when they were shown to be bullshit.

I'm not trying to have a go at you, I just genuinely don't know what your trying to say. If I was as eurosceptic as you seem to be no way would I have voted remain.

And its not particularly Neo-liberalism thats the problem here.....The EU is less Neo-liberal than the conservatives, in that it at least tries to make big organisations pay tax and look after the environment. Anyway even if that wasn't so leaving the EU wouldn't change the course of the ship. If anything it would make us more vulnerable to neoliberal pressures.

Yes I want us to leave the EU but not cut full on ties with them, we still need to trade with them and have a relationship on good terms. I never argued the Farage and Daily Mail narratives. I don't like the direction that the EU is going in, they constantly keep going on about further integration and expanding the membership. I don't like the political aspect of the EU, the red tape and bureaucracy. I believe it should be a commonwealth, a commonwealth of Europe. I very much dislike the behaviour of the European Central Bank and the way they treated southern European countries especially Greece and Italy and forced austerity on them. They also have pro-competition laws where it can make nationalisation difficult. The EU are lobbied by multi-national companies as is our Government and Parliament.

That view of Brexit was never heard as it was Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Gove and Farage whose view of Brexit was heard by the media and the people. I guess they never cared about those things I wrote above as with them it was about turning us into a low tax, low regulation offshore country.

The EU has a president and a militarised police force, it's pushing for it's own army, helped stir up the crisis in Ukraine with it's expansionism. The single currency has been a disaster for millions of people across and Europe. They called the Greeks lazy and forced them to make cuts to there public services in exchange for more loans. José Manuel Barroso when he was the European Commission president said "I like to compare the EU as a creation to the organisation of empire. We have the dimension of empire." A EU superstate would suit the US, it's multi-nationals and it's military as one leader would be easier to deal with then 50 separate one's, the same argument would go for a single currency as well.

To sum it up. I would like the EU to go back to being just a trading bloc with freedom of movement without the political side of it or the red tape or bureaucracy. I don't want to see the EU break up as a whole or for countries to go nationalistic like we had during the World Wars.

By the way I voted Remain because I thought the whole thing could be reformed and the fact that I didn't trust the tories and still don't. I am not on my own with this view either, I know several people who are eurosceptic who voted Remain. I don't agree with how the Tories have handled Brexit and they will make a mess of this country and turn us into a banana republic.