[0762]

It is an interesting debate with good comments and that is what should be happening and will eventually happen with the British govt - IMO their position is unsustainable and their intransigence and undemocratic stance will just increase support for Scotindy. There are already "cracks" showing in the ranks of Scot Labour Party senior officials and certain Scot Tories who realise that their undemocratic stance is untenable up here. I don't listen to that prat of a non-entity Sec of State for Scotland any more - a wealthy fascist, a Brexit man preaching his shit up here and I'll never figure how undemocratic morons with lots n lots of money take up these kinda govt dictatorial jobs Why??????? Give me all his money and I'll do positive thngs with it with a smile on my face. This fellow is another c### who never smiles and it appears like somebody hurt him in some way when he was a kid - comes over as a hater of people and is a social bully and there are many within his political party who behave in the same shit fashion - I wish they'd disappear and keep their poisonous opinions to themselves and their poor families who must have to endure their continuous bitterness and angst against people and life in general!!
Re EU membership, I can't emphasise enough and reiterate that strong alliances/bonds have been built up down the years with senior EU officials, incl Angela Merkel, who have met Sturgeon (and other SNP senior reps) and discreetly empathise with Scotland's unique position of being dominated by a bullish British state that wants to impose its political ideology on a country and population that does not share that ideology and never has.
Re the land border issue, I must say I have a few book titles that refer to the problem with many comments/advice coming from various leading Scottish academics and transport/logistics experts. It is an old issue, as are my book references, and one that SNP senior advisers and politicians are well aware of and have considered for a long time to debate and decide how to tackle it. The Scotland-England border is almost 100 miles long, with little or nothing in the way of natural physical barriers. Again, as mentioned in my previous thread, the NI position re an unmanned border and the different political agenda for NI and approving a NI referendum will definitely force this govt "into a corner" at some point as NI hurtles towards Irish reunification. IMO there will be a seamless border post at Berwick but the SNP hierarchy may well differ on that view. I have complete faith in that final decision anyway.
Lastly, note the SNP will be promoting a "national debate" next year that will cover many of the big issues that are relevant to the whole subject of becoming independent and the process that will be followed. A leafleting campaign will be deployed where informative leaflets will be sent to every household in Scotland. I've donated to this campaign as I perceive it to be positive and beneficial. They wanna move the debate to everyone in Scotland, no matter if they oppose or support Scotindy, but they must be open to constructive debate and how British politics has played a part in moving for self-determination.

[ritchiebaby]

I'll be interested to hear the SNP's official stance on any future Scotland/ROUK border, considering the arguments they raised regarding the UK/ROI border. Admittedly the Scotland/England border might be between non-EU countries at first, but according to the SNP's commitment to joining the EU after Independence, it will become an EU/non-EU border and therefore a matter between the EU and ROUK.

That doesn't impact on my support for Independence, but it will impact on future border/trade/tariff talks between Scotland/EU and ROUK. It will not be easily dealt with.

[0762]

It is certainly not an insurmountable problem and there are other countries in Europe that do practise in this way where EU trading traffic travels through the country. Switzerland would be a notable example for traffic travelling to Italy and vice versa.

[hibeejim21]

Croatia has a border with Bosnia where you drive from the EU into non EU and then back into EU and it works just fine. It should be a hard border as such but in reality it didn't feel that way.

Bear in mind Scottish trade that goes to England mostly heads off to USA,china,EU.... there is no way of tracking its final destination or true value. It would be insane for England to enforce a hard border with Scotland, it would go against their own interests.

Can someone please explain how remaining in the UK after a No Trade Deal Brexit is in any conceivable way better than leaving the UK and either joining the trading bloc that's going to have the whip hand over the UK or joining a bloc that has tariff free trading rights with the trading bloc that's going to have the whip hand over the UK? (EFTA)

[ritchiebaby]

One country I have experience of is Cyprus, where the whole island is officially an EU country, except that the North (Turkish) is not recognised by the EU, whereas the South (Greek) is. The border situation is haphazard to say the least, to the extent that my friend and his wife (residents in the South) regularly travel to the North for their weekly shopping, because it's cheaper. On one occasion my friend travelled to the North on his own and showed their 2 passports (permanently kept in the car) by virtue of habit to the border guard, who let him through. Only on the home journey did the border guard query that he was on his own.

I'm sure that will be the scenario on the future Scotland/England border, indeed there is currently a "booze cruise" run between Berwickshire and Berwick to get round the SNP minimum alcohol pricing legislation.

[0762]

One other thing to note is the glaring fact that in the devolved countries of the UK the Tories lost 65% of their seats in Wales, 90% of their seats in Scotland and 100% of their seats in NI. Yet they still govern the UK. Still think this is a Union???? The undemocratic manner in which these fascists keep contemptuously dismissing these results as "not the same as the one in England" just ensures this Disunited Kingdom is exactly as described - fractured and unrepairable!!

[hibeejim21]

Has any nation regretted gaining it's independence?

[St Charles Owl]

Has any nation regretted gaining it's independence?

It’s all hypothetical once the change happens anyway, once independence is gained then that becomes the reality and the alternative had a country stayed put is now just opinion on what might have happened or be different. There will always be people who regret it because they didn’t want it in the first place for whatever reason, but in the end the country in question has to just get on with it whichever route they choose.

Could apply the same to Brexit, it eventually will be what it will be, we won’t know what the alternative could have been.

[0762]

Scotland is sadly the only country since the end of WWII that didn't vote for independence when given the chance and IMO that was an absolute tragedy as we would've been well advanced on a different journey from the turbulence of the past three years in England! I won't even go into the ridiculous events of 2014 when the massive anti indy propaganda campaign, coordinated by the British state together with all other unionist parties, was an absolute disgrace and an "eyeopener" for a lotta observant Scottish voters who immediately vowed "this is not over, this is just the beginning"!! The latest country to vote for independence is Bougainville, an autonomous region of Papua New Guinea. The non-binding indy referendum choice was between greater autonomy within PNG and full independence - the people unanimously chose full independence! There was a history of oppression dating back to the 1970s and a civil war eventually broke out in 1988 that lasted almost a decade and cost Bougainville 20k lives.

[hibeejim21]

Has any nation regretted gaining it's independence?

It’s all hypothetical once the change happens anyway, once independence is gained then that becomes the reality and the alternative had a country stayed put is now just opinion on what might have happened or be different.  There will always be people who regret it because they didn’t want it in the first place for whatever reason, but in the end the country in question has to just get on with it whichever route they choose.

Could apply the same to Brexit, it eventually will be what it will be, we won’t know what the alternative could have been.

You couldn't apply the same to brexit, because ultimately it will be opposite to independence. Its the product of thick,racist little Englanders dreaming about the era when they won the world cup, but mostly knowing their place...and being happy to live in shit as long as they get fed the same lie.

How many nations have regretted independence ? I'll answer it for you - despite all the problems and strife that came following on not one of them would vote for a return to the old days.

---

Scotland is sadly the only country since the end of WWII that didn't vote for independence when given the chance and IMO that was an absolute tragedy as we would've been well advanced on a different journey from the turbulence of the past three years in England! I won't even go into the ridiculous events of 2014 when the massive anti indy propaganda campaign, coordinated by the British state together with all other unionist parties, was an absolute disgrace and an "eyeopener" for a lotta observant Scottish voters who immediately vowed "this is not over, this is just the beginning"!! The latest country to vote for independence is Bougainville, an autonomous region of Papua New Guinea. The non-binding indy referendum choice was between greater autonomy within PNG and full independence - the people unanimously chose full independence! There was a history of oppression dating back to the 1970s and a civil war eventually broke out in 1988 that lasted almost a decade and cost Bougainville 20k lives.

Ireland had to take up arms to achieve it, because the UK was running a campaign of propaganda and using intelligence on the ground to keep the irish people divided and "in their place". Following independence a lot of their people left for the UK and USA and there were hard times (mainly down to decades of UK misrule and the currency question) but no way would they consider returning back to the UK - In fact the republic is in a healthier state democratically going forward than the UK.