[hibeejim21]

My work has told us our jobs may well be reduced or going because of this xxxx fiasco.

The arse has fallen out of UK politics.

[0762]

What really infuriates me is the huge number of individuals throughout the country, and particularly the "oldie group" (based on observation/listening of these negative mutterings for well over 2 years) who consistently preach the comment, "I'm happy to leave with no deal, in fact leave immediately and do as the referendum vote suggested"! I call this attitude/behaviour economic illiteracy and many of these people are not gonna be "casualties" of this Brexit shambles but are happy to foist a negative legacy on the next generation of our young people (and a huge proportion of the population who wanna remain) who are unanimously opposed to leaving the EU and would be forced to face this catastrophe. That is not fair when one looks closely at the low proportion of our population who are brokering this shambles anyway and the fact two member nations of this "fractured" United Kingdom have voted to remain in the EU but sidelined by this "better together" argument/philosophy which always was utter bullshit when it comes to an intractable issue like this one!!

---

I forgot to mention my perceived options after last night's five votes that bizarrely suited May's situation:

OPTION 1: BREXIT ON JUNE 30TH
Tonight’s final vote mandated the government to ask the EU for an Article 50 extension to June 30th in order to implement the Withdrawal Agreement if it passes in Parliament by next Wednesday.
I can’t see any chance of that happening, even if we assume the EU would grant it (which it probably would). 75 MPs would need to change their minds on the WA in the space of a week, and in so far as anything in the world makes sense any more, they’re not going to. I could be wrong, but it looks a total non-starter.
OPTION 2: MUCH LONGER DELAY
This is the second outcome provided for by the motion. It requires the UK to come up with a very good reason for the EU to grant a much longer extension – realistically, the only plausible ones are a second referendum or a general election. The Conservative Party would absolutely implode if either of those things came to pass, and public fury would be considerable.
Even if there were to be an election it probably wouldn’t solve anything anyway, but it’s what I'd do if with the Tories, because it’d tear Labour in two as well. Be that as it may, though, I can’t see "turkeys voting for this particular Christmas". The Tories would need a new leader and I doubt they fancy that battle right now, never mind the chance of losing their own seats.
So either the government will just fail to ask the EU for a long extension, or will do so cursorily, without a decent reason, forcing the EU to run out of patience and refuse.
OPTION 3: NO-DEAL BREXIT IN 15 DAYS
If that transpires, Brexit goes ahead on 29 March, as Theresa May has repeatedly and doggedly insisted that it would, but with no deal. The Tories will be able to blame the EU for refusing an extension, and much of the UK media will back them up.
Brexit will happen, however messily, so Theresa May won’t go down in history as the PM who failed to deliver the “will of the people”, which IMO is the thing that terrifies her the most. Of three unpleasant options, no-deal is probably the one that does the least damage to the Tories, and they’ll appeal to the electorate to deploy the Blitz Spirit and get through these difficult times together, blah blah blah.

IMO Option 1 is a dead duck. Option 2 rips the Conservative Party to shreds and requires the Tories to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Option 3 fulfils what they claim is their duty to enact the referendum result, with a hideous outcome but crucially one which can be blamed on someone else.
(Not just the EU but also opposition and rebel Tory MPs who didn’t vote for the WA.)
Based on what you know of this government which of those do you think is the most plausible? Yep! A shambles and it should go back to the people!!

[hibeejim21]

I'm trying really,really hard not to lose my shit. But put it this way, if I come across nigel farage anywhere I wont be accountable for my actions.

[0762]

Oh aye! Please listen to Guy Verhofstadt's recent speech to the EU Council re this UK political shambles - it is excellent and ties in with many good comments on this Sb board! But watch for his scathing criticism of that slime ball, Nigel Farage, and his subsequent reaction - says it all for one of the main instigators of this mess that is Brexit and the dire consequences that could follow!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt20v9Wuo84

[ritchiebaby]

Purely as an exercise to put my point of view forward, I'll deny the sweeping theory that "oldies" are to blame for the current Brexit shambles.

I'm one of these oldies that voted for Brexit and I'd have taken the lead in negotiations and cordially welcomed workers from EU countries, no matter what their salaries were. Low-paid "low-skilled" workers are just as important as highly-paid "skilled" workers. I'd have guaranteed existing immigrants the right to stay in the UK and expect the EU to make similar guarantees. There are lots more examples of my way of doing things that are just about the exact opposite of the way things were done. The real culprits are the Tory negotiators and you'll find that I have been a consistent critic of the UK negotiations.

Having said that, there are two oldies and Tories, who I consider to be "heavyweights", who are vociferous in their disbelief, anger and amazement that we have arrived at the current position. They are Kenneth Clarke and Michael Heseltine, who I might not always agree with, but they do talk a lot of sense on Europe.

To be honest, I don't think it really matters which Government - Tory, Labour or National Unity - is in power, the EU negotiating position will be the same. I voted Leave and trusted the Government to carry out my wishes.    The Tory Government is to blame and should be held to account by the electorate.

Politicians are obviously incapable of coming to any agreement, so, on that basis alone, I'd welcome a second referendum. The country would still be divided, but that has always been the case. Brexit has brought that division up to the surface and exagerrated it.

[0762]

I must emphasise, in response to that oldies comment, that there was never an intention to tarnish every "oldie" with the "same brush" - that is clearly untrue anyway! However, I'm basing my comment on the significant proportion of that UK vote in 2016 that was taken up by "Brexit oldies"and a consistency of negative opinion that I regularly listen to or observe and I've perceived this "negativity of thought" for how many years on tv and radio with the "common factor" being this age group and the aspirations being groundless with no substance to them whatsoever and many of them economically illiterate as well as having an element of angst attached to the comments!!! I've previously commented Brexit is a fantasy, a con, and I don't change that view based on my own studied information from lotsa govt sources etc that more or less confirm there is no version of Brexit that is not gonna damage the country - THAT IS THE MAIN POINT WHETHER ANYBODY VOTED ONE WAY OR THE OTHER!! Like you, I concur that a 2nd referendum should be called on this farce but it is debatable whether that will happen anyway with the shameless shit heids who are at loggerheads in Westminster almost on a daily basis!! And yet the country is paralysed as are the powers that be huhhhhhh!!!

[hibeejim21]

Problem is Ritchie that there was never any negotiable path through this. Partly because of EU legislation that we helped devise and vote for.

Also the Irish border issue was as I've always maintained " unsolveable"

People that voted out were conned, another votes the only way out, if it's leave again fair enough, people are more informed now.

[0762]

I'll add if it was "leave winning again" by some miracle, my belief in absolute common sense and human nature would be "shot" for all time and I would seriously consider leaving this country! The next best thing would be, as intimated by me many times before, Scottish independence. But my optimism re this particular route to proper governance of my country is not particularly positive anyway as I observe an institutionalised Unionism in Scotland that still embraces a significant proportion of our population that is happy for Scots to be subservient to Westminster's diktat!! It is a "braking force" on proper self-determination that is difficult to remove esp if one wants a true drive for Scot indy that embraces over 60% of any referendum vote!! I just can't see it and that issue is endorsed with the British govt's intransigent stance and as for their stooge of a Secretary of State for Scotland, Mundell, my disregard for this bastard of a man, with no true interest in Scotland, is unprintable!!

[ritchiebaby]

Right at the start there was a negotiable path, but the red lines caused by the red mist of appeasing the Tory Eurosceptics led us up a blind alley. My own feeling is now that we've seen the outcome of the negotiations, there's no way I could trust any politician to do the needful, so I would vote Remain the next time, whenever that might be. Not because I thought I was wrong the first time, but because politicians can't/won't deliver.

My feelings on Mundell will be exactly the same as 0762's - unprintable!

[spireitematt]

Oh aye! Please listen to Guy Verhofstadt's recent speech to the EU Council re this UK political shambles - it is excellent and ties in with many good comments on this Sb board! But watch for his scathing criticism of that slime ball, Nigel Farage, and his subsequent reaction - says it all for one of the main instigators of this mess that is Brexit and the dire consequences that could follow!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt20v9Wuo84

You do realise that Nigel Farage only turns up to the Parliament to do his speech so it can be filmed for his social media accounts and once he has said what he wants to say he then leaves.

---

Donald Tusk is looking to get a lengthy extension of Article 50 from the 27 member states so the UK can rethink it's Brexit strategy and build a consensus around it. That technically means we will only extend Article 50 if you have a 2nd referendum and change your mind.