[0762]

Last night the UK government lost a parliamentary vote which, while largely symbolic, was designed to hamper its ability to generate its finances in the event of a no-deal Brexit (and therefore to try to incentivise it to avoid a no-deal).
A handful of Tory MPs voted for the motion, combining with the opposition to defeat the government by 303 to 296. No Scottish Tory MPs rebelled!!!!???? However, despite having pledged when they were elected that they would vote to defend Scotland’s interests, something pretty much everyone agrees a no-deal Brexit would be a catastrophe for. We need to wipe this lot off the face of Scottish politics again and a lotta voting Scots really need to "smell the coffee" re this minority group of shameless bastards who do not represent the interests of their constituents! Indeed the Scot Labour Party falls into that category as well when it comes to this kinda misrepresentation and that's why Leonard and his Labour chums are in such a mess up here re various issues incl a cover up re sexual harassment of party members!!

[0762]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A70n6YG7LLs
This is an interesting interview (from a Scottish viewpoint) with Sinn Fein's leader, Mary Lou McDonald at a time when I've occasionally wondered, " Where on earth is Sinn Fein during this whole sorry Brexit mess and particularly where much of the debate centres on the Irish back stop"? It is curious how she is more or less implying that Scottish MPs should similarly withdraw their presence from Westminster for the good reasons following observations for a long time on bbctv broadcasts of PM Questions and she is accurate in that assessment because I've watched enough of these broadcasts to verify that accuracy.
Boycott Parliament? I can perceive valid cases on both sides regarding whether the SNP should take their seats, and it’s perhaps worth taking a moment to outline them.
The pro-boycott line is that Scotland’s MPs are consistently ignored and even openly derided. (The latter is impossible to dispute if you ever watch Scottish Questions in the Commons, where Tory, Labour and Lib Dem MPs alike jeer and catcall and abuse any SNP MP who has the temerity to speak for Scottish interests). Therefore they achieve nothing by turning up except to allow Scotland to be disrespected and belittled.
And the UK government doesn’t, as a matter of policy, acknowledge Scotland’s MPs as a bloc representing the nation even when they act across party loyalties. During negotiations over the Scotland Bill in 2015, MPs representing 58 of Scotland’s 59 constituencies were united on a number of demands, yet every one of them was overruled peremptorily by a government with just a single Scottish MP.
Finally, of course, the UK Parliament frequently actively blocks the democratic will not only of Scotland’s MPs in the Commons but of Scotland’s own elected Parliament. Holyrood has a standing mandate for a second independence referendum, passed by a Scottish Parliament comprising five proportionately-represented parties including three Unionist ones, yet Westminster simply refuses to obey the normal rules of a parliamentary democracy by enacting that mandate.
So given that Scottish MPs have only 9% of the UK Parliament’s votes and will almost always be subject to being overridden by the government of the day, the argument runs that a boycott makes a strong statement and denies legitimacy to a government which has no democratic mandate in Scotland and demonstrates no respect for the wishes of Scotland as a nation.

[Devongone]

Isn't Scotland over-represented at Westminster? If seats represented population percentage shouldn't you have only about 7.5% or Parliament's votes? And you've got your own Parliament. And Scottish MP's do a fair job of deriding the English too .... Isn't Scotland miles better off than the north of England?

Do you really think if Sinn Fein had the opportunity to line up 50-odd MPs in the enemy Parliament they'd be turning it down? They'd be in there causing havoc. They sit outside dying quietly for what they believe, because there'd only ever would be two or three of them and they'd never be heard. Absence is their voice.

Scotland can either believe the English are the enemy and their oppressors, in which case Scots shouldn't moan whatever reaction they get from English Tories, or they can work to improve their lot within the UK. You can't both accuse the English of being shite and expect the English to hang on your every word. (Ask the EU about having cakes and eating them!)

Get on with disrupting our shyster Parliament, don't walk away when its taken you hundreds of years to achieve this much. Surely that would be the most stupid decision since you sold yourselves to us in the first place.

You want self-determination? You want to be a nation? In an overcrowded Parliament your absence won't even be noticed. Sit there with gags on, stand up and speak in Gaelic, anything but slinking away with your tails between your legs. And to be honest you'd also be letting down a lot of the voiceless English who could no longer attract even you to the justice of their cause.

[0762]

Scotland is not over-represented in Parliament based on constituency representation as set out by the British govt and based on the geography of Scotland! Also what a loada false insinuations/opinion in your thread re anti-English this, anti-English that blah blah blah!! Ill-informed and self-opinionated and I'm assuming the "tone" of it is to "wind up" any reader with an opposite view!! Also you've hardly commented properly on any para of thread #192 apart from deride all Scots re the "oppression of the English". Ehhhhh??? So lets suppress all rights to oppose such undemocratic practise and shameless behaviour because we are Scots but supposedly an equal partner when it comes to parliamentary debate and policies etc!!!??? And OF COURSE the SNP are present in parliament to improve things for the Scottish people but it is a "losing battle", which is precisely why Mary Lou McDonald rightly suggested a boycott!!! And btw if Sinn Fein had 50 MPs (which they don't have anyway!) they still would not be present as you suggest - no f####### chance!! Lastly who the f### cares re such an arrogant comment that Scottish presence would hardly be noticed in an overcrowded parliament - AS LONG AS THAT ABSENCE WAS A TRADE OFF FOR AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND TO FLOURISH AND BE GOVERNED FAR BETTER THAN BEING DONE IN SAID OVERCROWDED UNIONIST PARLIAMENT!! I think parliament would be poorer for that loss but it would be worth it in the long term!! As for the last 8 lines of silly, deriding remarks in your thread, there is a nice Scottish line to throw that shit back in your face - "AWAY AND BOIL YER HEID"!!

[hibeejim21]

Westminster 'the mother of all democracies' is taking back control.....so you
Uppity jocks get back in your box and keep giving us your oil !!!!!

Scotland was a nation when it entered the union and it still will be if we ever leave. Shame it might take that for some to realise that .

Anyway heading for Celtic park.

[0762]

Well said mate!! The usual "slanted argument" to suit the poster, one with a warped agenda!! Maybe it was the mere mention of Sinn Fein and a comment by their Leader ML McDonald that "tripped a chord" to utter certain idiotic remarks!

[St Charles Owl]

Wow, 0762, you interpreted Devon's post completely differently than I did!!! Now you have me questioning how I read it but having done so again I can't see what caused your vitriol?? Devon is essentially saying that if you want to have a voice and potentially effect change or at least have your opinion heard in Westminster, going down the Sinn Fein route of simply not turning up is not the way to do it. He is suggesting the 50 odd MPs that represent Scotland should attend parliament and make as much noise as they can and do whatever they can to disrupt Westminster. It might not succeed but staying away like SF do certainly won't and ultimately makes them irrelevant as far as Westminster is concerned!!

I do agree that the 9% of the seats given to Scotland is more than the population in Scotland should have if you pro-rata it on that basis. Its only a percent or two out so probably irrelevant but the last time I looked the people are the ones who vote, not the geography or land mass they live on!!

I also agree with there being plenty of anti-England rhetoric from Scottish people and institutions down the years and while some of that may well be deserved it hardly helps the Union, but I suspect a lot of it is designed to have the opposite effect. I am sure at some point Scotland will gain its independence from the UK, personally I hope that doesn't happen but I have no skin in that game, but the clamour for an independent Scotland to then quickly jump back into bed with the EU seems a bit like out of the frying pan and into the fire. You claim that Scotland is irrelevant in terms of its voice and opinions within the UK, you can bet its even more irrelevant in the EU. And if you think the "divorce" the Uk is currently going through with the EU is a fiasco then I can only dread to think how much more difficult it will be to extricate Scotland from the UK and all that will have to change to achieve that!!!

[0762]

Let me enlighten you re that post SCO. There were some good points made but I found the tone of it was not the best. The insinuation of English oppression is a misnomer up here in Scotland. There is an implication that kinda conveys a message that lotsa English people are being targeted or similar and it happens a lot up here!! That is absolute garbage and these kinda general insinuations couldn't be further from the truth! I object to this kinda shit being uttered by people who don't live up here and have never sampled the pluralist society and pragmatic governance that is self-evident and taken for granted. We don't go around beating up English people or others on a daily basis and thank god for that as that would be a horrible society to live in.
It is the implied stuff I object to!! The main theme of Scottish angst is relative to the crass politics that we are observing at Westminster and Scottish MPs are at the forefront of a battle against unionist politicians who effectively don't like the SNP or nationalists and yet Scotland is classified as an "equal partner", one of four countries within the Union. As hibeejim commented - Scotland, get back in your box but keep giving us your oil eh and btw we won't set up a Scottish Oil fund either!! Our MPs are "our voice" and they are being shat on by mostly English politicians and most Scots are aware of that fact. Devongone opined some perfectly reasonable thoughts on this issue but I didn't like the tone of some of it because I am Scottish and hold strong views on the way forward to a better future away from Westminster altogether - just an opinion! I regard the Scottish government, a progressive govt, to be far superior to a shambles of a current British govt that is so divisive and "full of vipers" plus propped up by a group of devils called the DUP!! Our Scot governance is practised under very difficult fiscal constraints but it is not perfect and I could raise a few criticisms against my government but such criticism applies to all governments worldwide with a view to "listening and trying to improve things". The Scottish govt should be empowered up to a devomax level - a "do minimum" that was a UK vow in 2014 but not followed through in 2015 - a lie! That won't happen because of successive British governments who have this obsession to retain power and withhold it from the devolved countries of which they generally have no interest!! It's a paradox and a disgrace!!

[St Charles Owl]

Let me enlighten you re that post SCO. There were some good points made but I found the tone of it was not the best. The insinuation of English oppression is a misnomer up here in Scotland. There is an implication that kinda conveys a message that lotsa English people are being targeted or similar and it happens a lot up here!! That is absolute garbage and these kinda general insinuations couldn't be further from the truth! I object to this kinda shit being uttered by people who don't live up here and have never sampled the pluralist society and pragmatic governance that is self-evident and taken for granted. We don't go around beating up English people or others on a daily basis and thank god for that as that would be a horrible society to live in.
It is the implied stuff I object to!! The main theme of Scottish angst is relative to the crass politics that we are observing at Westminster and Scottish MPs are at the forefront of a battle against unionist politicians who effectively don't like the SNP or nationalists and yet Scotland is classified as an "equal partner", one of four countries within the Union. As hibeejim commented - Scotland, get back in your box!! Our MPs are "our voice" and they are being shat on by mostly English politicians and most Scots are aware of that fact. Devongone opined some perfectly reasonable thoughts on this issue but I didn't like the tone of some of it because I am Scottish and hold strong views on the way forward to a better future away from Westminster altogether - just an opinion!

I have spent a lot of time in Scotland and never had any issues aside from the usual banter, my main impression of Scots is generally from the ones I have spent time with who live in England, maybe their perspective is different and maybe their nationalism is a bit more pronounced because of where they live. Certainly from my perspective I tend to be a bit more protective of England and the UK in general with Americans since I moved here.

On the subject of politicians I think one of the points Devon alluded to was the lot a Scottish MP gets in terms of being listened to is not that much different from the lot the Northern England MPs get either. The UK, and particularly England, is completely London/South East/M25 centric, most major policies are born out of the needs to that region before the rest is taken into consideration. Its probably why Labour dominate in the North rather than the Tories. Whenever you have a big slice of both the population and money residing in one region that will always be the case but I don't see it as only an anti-Scottish thing, it applies to other regions of the UK as well.

[0762]

Well one of my observations re areas in northern England was that there were a lotta people who would like to vote for the SNP; that "tells a story" re the political disaffection of many people in that region but I assumed the numbers were insignificant! Re Anglos, go to Corby and discover what staunch "Scottishness" actually is with lotsa Corby people who are proud of their Scottish roots and are not British! Re America, I've lost count of the number of American visitors who think Scotland is a fully independent country as much as many yanks irritatingly refer to GB as England.