[hibeejim21]

I'd like to add a " do you aprove tax dodging,public service starving,money laundering self servatives Over union with Europe ( WITH ALL THE OPT OUTS) on the vote too

Anyway have a look at the good Friday agreement . See why the dup want it dead and also why the EU won't do 'no surrender' to may.....no matter how she gurns.

After decades of subjugation, the Irish have finally reingaged with their old allies...France.

We are fucked.

[hibeejim21]

Now mordaunt is 'offering' support for a 2 year no deal transition type arrangement.

No deal means no transition you xxxx moron. This is a cabinet minister FFS.

Brexit has really shown up the lack of talent in the British political system, as well as it's sheer uselessness.

Because there were so many different brexits the Tories are just going to help themselves to what suits them best while the poor will get shafted - all under the guise of 'will of the people'

Madness.

[0762]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46600850
I concur with that "take" on this ploy, which I think has political blackmail attached to it and I am flabbergasted that any responsible govt could even consider this when one studies a plethora of Tory comments that condemn such a politically catastrophic move and that includes comments by May herself!

[hibeejim21]

Hang on - I didn't see stockpiling medicine and food on the side of a bus. Or troops at our docks and borders.

Problem with brexit is that it's always been seen as a price worth paying... as long as its for others to pay.

[0762]

Aye! I perceive it as a price that lotsa English "oldie voters" see it worth paying. Having observed and listened often enough to this kinda extreme theme re exiting the EU, the observed factor was the predominant same "oldie" age group, many of whom professed that they are not stupid and always knew what they wanted!! In that case were they "brainwashed" and by whom?? We need another democratic referendum pronto to finally "put this crisis to bed"!!!

[spireitematt]

Aye! I perceive it as a price that lotsa English "oldie voters" see it worth paying. Having observed and listened often enough to this kinda extreme theme re exiting the EU, the observed factor was the predominant same "oldie" age group, many of whom professed that they are not stupid and always knew what they wanted!! In that case were they "brainwashed" and by whom?? We need another democratic referendum pronto to finally "put this crisis to bed"!!!

It took 354 days to get a referendum in 2016, it will probably take another year to get another referendum.

I don't think the majority of older voters were brainwashed, you've got to remember when we entered the common market in 1973 and had the referendum in 1975 those "oldies" as you describe them would have been young and they would have seen the common market evolve and change into its current form and what it is now. What Ted Heath signed Britain up to in 1973 isn't what now exists. In 1992 John Major didn't give a referendum on Maastricht and Blair/Brown didn't give a referendum on Lisbon either. If Major, Blair/Brown had given referendums on Maastricht and Lisbon I very much doubt we would have signed up to them.

You do realise even if we have another referendum on the matter, the matter won't go away, the genie is out of the bottle and it won't go back in.

What happens if there is a 2nd referendum and it's Leave again? Do we have a 3rd? a 4th? Does the same happen with Scottish politics and independent referendums. The Scottish indy referendum has split and divided Scotland just like the EU referendum has done for the UK. You also have to remember that 37% of Scottish people voted Leave.

Your party the "SNP" are a one trick pony. The SNP are anti-English and also anti-unionist, there only topic of conversation is going independent and leaving the United Kingdom. The only policies the SNP have is leaving the UK and joining the EU again that's it!. The way I see it there is no difference between the SNP and UKIP. SNP are Nationalists who want to leave the UK and UKIP who are pretty much irrelevant want to leave the EU.

The SNP are failing on education, healthcare and public services and also why does the SNP give free university education to EU students but not English students who want to study in Scotland? Racist? Also if your party concentrated on these matters instead of worrying what to call Gingerbread Men then you wouldn't be in such a mess.

[hibeejim21]

You make some fair points matt but you are just plain wrong about the SNP, they are by no means an "anti English" party. Please supply some evidence of this. Your points about education are distorted - English,welsh and NI students have their fees capped, less than they would pay elsewhere. Also English students can study anywhere in the EU. Maybe instead of trying to turn things into a Scotland v England conflict you should reflect on why Westminster wont offer free education for English students - unlike a nation that doesn't even have control of the full potential of its purse strings.

And comparing a progressive centre left party with UKIP is xxxx nuts, but I'm sure deep down you know that.

[ritchiebaby]

I agree with both matt and jim, but only in the first half of their posts. I don't agree that the SNP are a one trick pony (that's only the way they are portrayed in the national media) but I do agree they should be promoting their other successes more.

And I'm not a great believer in the descriptions of "free education", "free prescriptions", "free bus passes", etc. They're not free, they're only free to the recipient. Except in my case, I'm still paying for my "free" benefits. No wonder we as a country are hard-up, we're giving far too much money away in "freebies". In my opinion, these benefits should be means-tested in some way, so that the poorest get the benefit and the richest can pay their own way.

[spireitematt]

You make some fair points matt but you are just plain wrong about the SNP, they are by no means an "anti English" party. Please supply some evidence of this. Your points about education are distorted - English,welsh and NI students have their fees capped, less than they would pay elsewhere. Also English students can study anywhere in the EU. Maybe instead of trying to turn things into a Scotland v England conflict you should reflect on why Westminster wont offer free education for English students - unlike a nation that doesn't even have control of the full potential of its purse strings.

And comparing a progressive centre left party with UKIP is xxxx nuts, but I'm sure deep down you know that.

The SNP is a Nationalist party who want to leave the United Kingdom and I've heard 0762 and other SNP supporters on TV interviews and on social media go on about how they want to leave the "little Englanders" behind.

The fees are capped at £9,000 a year or £9,500 a year. If you are an EU citizen you don't have to pay tuition in Scotland but if you are English, Welsh or Northern Irish then you have to pay the £9,000 or £9,500 a year if you study in Scotland. In my opinion scrapping tuition fees isn't the answer but lowering them down to a suitable cost such as £3,500 would be better. At Universities nowadays there is too many mickey mouse courses and the standards of entry have dropped. University should be tough to get into but easier to get by while studying.

The problem with Westminister is they only care about the people inside the M25 and don't give a damn about anybody outside it. The whole system is archaic and needs to be brought into the 21st century.

Yes the SNP are a centre left party but they are Nationalist and want to dissolve the union. UKIP are a right wing party probably too right wing in some cases who are anti-EU and want to leave the EU but keep the Union together with Scotland/Wales and Northern Ireland. UKIP appeal to people by using Nationalist values and memories of days gone by of how things used to be. So when I say SNP and UKIP have a lot in common I mean Nationalism and using Nationalist values to further there agenda. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic about your country and being proud of where you are from but when Nationalism starts to creep in it becomes a sticky wicket because Nationalism eventually leads to racism.

---

I agree with both matt and jim, but only in the first half of their posts. I don't agree that the SNP are a one trick pony (that's only the way they are portrayed in the national media) but I do agree they should be promoting their other successes more.

And I'm not a great believer in the descriptions of "free education", "free prescriptions", "free bus passes", etc. They're not free, they're only free to the recipient. Except in my case, I'm still paying for my "free" benefits. No wonder we as a country are hard-up, we're giving far too much money away in "freebies". In my opinion, these benefits should be means-tested in some way, so that the poorest get the benefit and the richest can pay their own way.

The reason why I say that the SNP are a one trick pony is because all they seem to say and go on about in Parliament is about leaving the UK and dissolving the Union, just like UKIP go on about leaving the EU.

I agree with you that free education, free prescriptions and free bus passes aren't free and that they are only free to the recipient, the thing is if you've paid tax and N.I contributions and paid into the system then you should be entitled to benefits when you become hard-up in life and use the welfare state as a safety net because that's what it is, a safety neat in times of need. There are people who have worked all their life and paid into the system and when they become unemployed or hard-up through no fault of their own they are refused benefits and are made to feel like scroungers by the right wing media and politicians and certain people in society believe that people who are struggling or down on their luck are scroungers. The right wing media do the same to migrants and refugees by demeaning them all layabouts and work shy which is just not true, you might get the odd migrant or two who want to live off the welfare state but they are a minority and not the majority. The majority of migrants and refugees contribute more to the UK economy than they take out, they work in our NHS and public services and without them we would struggle.

The welfare state needs reform, as does our NHS, as does our political system and how things are done.

[0762]

I concur with Jim's comments re that inaccurate perception of the SNP. Of course there are factions within the movement who are hard line on the anti Scotland agenda in the Tory media and consistently in the British govt but don't bother with this all embracing anti-English nonsense. I've read this shit and seen it all before and as Jim says - there is no evidence to substantiate that insinuation and I'll qualify that by giving Scottish Nationalism another more accurate title: civic nationalism! To compare the SNP with a scumbag RW party called UKIP is ridiculous and ill informed with no true knowledge of the SNP and the broader independence movement which dilute the elements of that hard line faction I previously mentioned almost into obscurity but certain people, media and conniving politicians wanna make a "bigger deal" out of this issue than it really is! Deja vu!! Also the SNP is transparent in stipulating in its political manifesto that its ultimate aim is independence for Scotland!!!!! Scots are still voting it in to govern Scotland and indeed why not and that trend won't change any time soon!!
Lastly re free tuition fees in Scotland, the main theme for EU students is that Scotland is a welcoming country and now extending that guarantee to 2020. English, Welsh and NI students fall "under a different ed umbrella" initiated by the UK govt who "changed course" on tuition (remember that shameless slime ball, Nick Clegg, et al!) and of course they were never gonna allow a deluge of prospective freebie students from south of the border to potentially swamp the uni student enrolment process. There had to be a practical deterrent and a reference to there being a difference in policy and provision by two very different practising governments!! I will also comment that the Scottish govt is by no means perfect but we have by far a better govt up here and I judge that on the fact that my government is a progressive govt that is operating under very challenging fiscal demands that have been that way since 2010. It is not easy but please study your own govt's performances in the areas that you mention and you'll discover the figures are a lot worse in the likes of the NHS and Social Welfare etc!! It is not as "black and white" as you intimate!!! Enough said!!