[hibeejim21]

Whats scottish nationalism got to do with it ? Scotland voted predominately against brexit,not one seat. And thats including some of the most impoverished places in the UK. Scottish nationalists do not have a problem with immigration or freedom of movement - that was the predominant issue in england and wales.

I wouldn't have respected that result whatever, there was absolutely no need for that referendum and no great clamour from ordinary british people to have it. In the event it was clearly hijacked (often similarly to the US election) and illegally manipulated by the right wing elite, their hard brexit tory friends in parliament and useful idiots like farage..... who told lie after lie after lie (some of which have been repeated on here) to scare people half to death of the EU.

So lets see these 'different reasons'. For most leave voters it was EU immigration that was the issue and the stats back that up. The elderly and people with low education tended to support it most. People were clearly scared that foreigners would take the jobs that they don't tend to want anyway.

I visited poland last year and was surprised at the standard of living,and their wages have increased 30% in the last few years whilst ours have fallen by what 13% ? And how has this been achieved ? Its due to the EU working to standardise living standards in its member states, the numbers of EU immigrants were going to fall naturally. The real issue is non-EU immigration which is about to rise again steadily, especially after we do these much vaunted new trade deals. With our ageing population and demographic its the only way. And then what happens ?

---

The guy who still 'gets ma craw' even now is David Cameron, one of the worst British PMs in living memory and a selfish one 'to boot'! He was a major player in the shameless unionist lies, similar to the shameless lies/deceptions of brexit, that were fed to the Scottish voting population in Scot referendum year 2014 and then had the gall to set up that ill-conceived EU referendum bill after not even honouring a min devo-max settlement as promised in late 2014-early 2015 - the shit British state playing 'funny buggers' on the promises that were laid out in their pre-voting stance (the infamous 3 amigos scenario). He had no right to even go near that Tory political folly but he foolishly did it anyway and 'slipped on a banana skin' in the process - a total imbecile and inadvertent political saboteur who has created a major problem and division throughout the country!!! I hate this man/coward with a passion and he just had to be a toerag!

Yup. An absolute snake of a man. His weakness and stupidity has dealt the UK a huge blow,i hold him even more responsible than the brexit voters. Its power at all costs with his ilk, forget the national interest.

It will be ok for him on his carribean beach with his millionaire wife and daddys tax dodged gains.

[spireitematt]

So lets see these 'different reasons'. For most leave voters it was EU immigration that was the issue and the stats back that up. The elderly and people with low education tended to support it most. People were clearly scared that foreigners would take the jobs that they don't tend to want anyway.

I visited poland last year and was surprised at the standard of living,and their wages have increased 30% in the last few years whilst ours have fallen by what 13% ? And how has this been achieved ? Its due to the EU working to standardise living standards in its member states, the numbers of EU immigrants were going to fall naturally. The real issue is non-EU immigration which is about to rise again steadily, especially after we do these much vaunted new trade deals. With our ageing population and demographic its the only way. And then what happens ?

WOW JUST WOW! you actually went there.

[hibeejim21]

Awww bless

[St Charles Owl]

So lets see these 'different reasons'. For most leave voters it was EU immigration that was the issue and the stats back that up. The elderly and people with low education tended to support it most. People were clearly scared that foreigners would take the jobs that they don't tend to want anyway.

I visited poland last year and was surprised at the standard of living,and their wages have increased 30% in the last few years whilst ours have fallen by what 13% ? And how has this been achieved ? Its due to the EU working to standardise living standards in its member states, the numbers of EU immigrants were going to fall naturally. The real issue is non-EU immigration which is about to rise again steadily, especially after we do these much vaunted new trade deals. With our ageing population and demographic its the only way. And then what happens ?

I agree that immigration was the hot topic behind a lot of people's vote, I also agree that that is a red herring because we control that anyway due to the way we operate, so coming out of the EU won't change that unless the government decides to change it. People have always been scared about Johnny Foreigner coming into our country and taking our jobs, you see that in Germany now, previous French governments have often talked about it and the US is completely divided on the whole issue and has been for many years. Those fears will not go away and until someone can come up with a coherent argument that disproves this whole notion it will continue to be an issue.

You paragraph about Poland though for me is exactly one of the reasons why some people want out of the EU!! The EU want to standardize living standards across member states you say, that is a laudable objective and something that makes perfect sense. But to state Poland's wages have gone up 30% while in the UK they have dropped 13% is exactly the sort of stats that prove the UK needs to get out of the EU!!! The EU over the last couple of decades has added a bunch of much poorer states to their membership such as Poland, Romania, Hungary, Greece etc, and if as you suggest the goal is to improve those countries then they have to find ways to do that but not at the expense or to the detriment of the original wealthier countries!! Imagine how the leave campaign would spin those numbers, three cheers for Poland, sorry Mr UK Citizen you wages are dropping but at least its benefiting our brothers in Poland!!!

I am sure and I agree that that isn't the whole story but unless someone refutes the figures that you state then you can see how those sort of stats would leave people cold at the idea of supporting the EU.

[0762]

That is indeed not the whole story and I agree it provides 'ammunition' to opponents of the EU. However, reflect back to current and past shit British govts AGAIN who did not run the country properly and that covers policies that are detrimental to the working population plus shit political ideologies. Like Ireland, Poland's govt had embraced it's EU membership with great enthusiasm and taken full advantage of the benefits and subsidies that have 'come their way'! And don't forget the financial crash of 2010 that had a huge effect in the way that the UK changed it's attitude on lotsa issues and blaming others for our financial and socio-economic woes - no coincidence and exactly like Germany in the 1930s following the 'Wall Street crash'!! Will we never learn the moral lessons from history!!! ? Apparently not for some people!

[St Charles Owl]

That is indeed not the whole story and I agree it provides 'ammunition' to opponents of the EU. However, reflect back to current and past shit British govts AGAIN who did not run the country properly and that covers policies that are detrimental to the working population and shit political ideologies. Like Ireland, Poland's govt had embraced it's EU membership with great enthusiasm and taken full advantage of the benefits and subsidies that have 'come their way'! And don't forget the financial crash of 2010 that had a huge effect in the way that the UK changed it's attitude on lotsa issues - no coincidence!

Yes I agree, those figures are not as plain as they seem but you can see how a statement about the EU's aims to improve conditions in their member states coupled with the reality of the stats "associated" with them will undoubtedly put the EU in a bad light when presented that way. There is nothing wrong with the facts, its just how they are spun and its all too easy to spin things like this about the EU because of the lack of transparency we tend to see from the EU and the undercurrent of distrust we have with them over the years we have been in.

During the referendum the EU should have done a lot more promotion of the good they do and the benefits that directly come to the UK through its membership and its status within it. There was a typical arrogance from them with their stance of not getting involved etc, when in reality they should have been shouting from the rooftops about the good things instead of standing on the sidelines and watching this go down. They stand to lose a lot by the UK leaving, just like the UK stands to lose by continuing down this path, but the Remain campaign did a dreadful job of getting the message across during the campaigning. The EU and the UK political parties - nearly all of whom supported Remain - must take some of the blame for the result that we saw - simply consistently blaming Boris, Farage and co is not enough, they let them guide the agenda and the message while never seizing control of the debate for the things that the EU brought to us.

[ritchiebaby]

But they didn't give it an adverse opinion which is what some are saying they are trying to hide. This 'they haven't had the accounts signed off in 20 years' is a total lie.

The most recent report gives a qualified opinion that “A significant part of the 2016 expenditure audited was not affected by a material level of error”.

They stress around 3% of their budget was not used according to the rules,but that is "not a measure of fraud, inefficiency or waste"

Jim, your selective quotes are accurate, but it doesn't alter the fact that my selective quotes are equally correct.

In fact the report says that "About half of 2016 expenditure is free from material error". What it conveniently omits to say is that just over half is not free from material error. The report also states that there is a materiality error of 4.8% (approx. 3bn Euros) in re-imbursement payments and it also goes on to give examples of such errors and the reporting of 11 fraud cases directly discovered by their audit.

[spireitematt]

Awww bless  

You do realise you pretty much called all 17.4 million people who voted Leave, uneducated and racist.

Also the reason Poland's standard of living has increased is that they put €4.0 billion into the EU pot and get €17.4 billion back in return.

Do you want a United States of Europe?

[hibeejim21]

But they didn't give it an adverse opinion which is what some are saying they are trying to hide. This 'they haven't had the accounts signed off in 20 years' is a total lie.

The most recent report gives a qualified opinion that “A significant part of the 2016 expenditure audited was not affected by a material level of error”.

They stress around 3% of their budget was not used according to the rules,but that is "not a measure of fraud, inefficiency or waste"

Jim, your selective quotes are accurate, but it doesn't alter the fact that my selective quotes are equally correct.

In fact the report says that "About half of 2016 expenditure is free from material error". What it conveniently omits to say is that just over half is not free from material error. The report also states that there is a materiality error of 4.8% (approx. 3bn Euros) in re-imbursement payments and it also goes on to give examples of such errors and the reporting of 11 fraud cases directly discovered by their audit.

That figure is lower than most national budgets ritchie. Perspective please.

Material error arises from things like a missing supporting document or the incorrect application of rules (these were the two main causes of material error noted by the auditors). Material error is an accounting term and it does NOT mean fraud or waste.

---

So lets see these 'different reasons'. For most leave voters it was EU immigration that was the issue and the stats back that up. The elderly and people with low education tended to support it most. People were clearly scared that foreigners would take the jobs that they don't tend to want anyway.

I visited poland last year and was surprised at the standard of living,and their wages have increased 30% in the last few years whilst ours have fallen by what 13% ? And how has this been achieved ? Its due to the EU working to standardise living standards in its member states, the numbers of EU immigrants were going to fall naturally. The real issue is non-EU immigration which is about to rise again steadily, especially after we do these much vaunted new trade deals. With our ageing population and demographic its the only way. And then what happens ?

I agree that immigration was the hot topic behind a lot of people's vote, I also agree that that is a red herring because we control that anyway due to the way we operate, so coming out of the EU won't change that unless the government decides to change it.  People have always been scared about Johnny Foreigner coming into our country and taking our jobs, you see that in Germany now, previous French governments have often talked about it and the US is completely divided on the whole issue and has been for many years.  Those fears will not go away and until someone can come up with a coherent argument that disproves this whole notion it will continue to be an issue.

You paragraph about Poland though for me is exactly one of the reasons why some people want out of the EU!!  The EU want to standardize living standards across member states you say, that is a laudable objective and something that makes perfect sense.  But to state Poland's wages have gone up 30% while in the UK they have dropped 13% is exactly the sort of stats that prove the UK needs to get out of the EU!!!  The EU over the last couple of decades has added a bunch of much poorer states to their membership such as Poland, Romania, Hungary, Greece etc, and if as you suggest the goal is to improve those countries then they have to find ways to do that but not at the expense or to the detriment of the original wealthier countries!!  Imagine how the leave campaign would spin those numbers, three cheers for Poland, sorry Mr UK Citizen you wages are dropping but at least its benefiting our brothers in Poland!!!

I am sure and I agree that that isn't the whole story but unless someone refutes the figures that you state then you can see how those sort of stats would leave people cold at the idea of supporting the EU.

Its not even part of the story though SCO.

The UK wage levels could comfortably be higher than they are,but the conservative government has been forcing austerity policies for some time now and that has forced wages and living standards lower. Not anything the EU has done.

The EU in helping the eastern european nations adjust is actually in all our interests going forward. Comparing them with the UK - one of the worlds richest economies in that context doesn't really work.

[St Charles Owl]

Its not even part of the story though SCO.

The UK wage levels could comfortably be higher than they are,but the conservative government has been forcing austerity policies for some time now and that has forced wages and living standards lower. Not anything the EU has done.

The EU in helping the eastern european nations adjust is actually in all our interests going forward. Comparing them with the UK - one of the worlds richest economies in that context doesn't really work.

No I agree with you, but as I said in my post replying to 0762 these are the sort of figures that make the EU look really bad for the UK. None of the figures you gave were incorrect but phrased the way you phrased them made it read as though the UK was down and Poland was up because of the EU policy to standardize living standards across all members, when in reality that is not the case. This is the problem with the EU, very few people really know what they do, how they do it and what that costs each of us, and the EU seem to always hide and not be transparent when these things need clearly explaining!! They truly can be their own worst enemy at times and when those times are critical like the referendum they go completely silent!!