[0762]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...sions-rage

As a divided UK continues into raging brexit debates, at long last the STUC challenging both Labour's leader Corbyn and his Scottish stooge, Leonard (what an insipid Scot Labour leader this guy is to add to the list of unimpressive failures!) during his Scottish visit and asking for an explanation why they don't back the single market after damning economic reports from north and south of the border and a consequent potential threat to thousands of jobs as well as a significant drop in living standards. It's time to marginalise these 'better together' unionist suspects, who are definitely 'at it' again since 2014, before we move on to the Scot Indy 2 hustings period!!!

[hibeejim21]

Labours problem is that they have nowhere to go on brexit, they can't out brexit the tories, going brexit lite is risky with the north and midland seats that voted out and going full on anti brexit would likely destroy them electorally - it resulted in no increase in support for the lib dems on that platform at the election. So i understand corbyns dilemna, scotland is a totally different set of circumstances to england and wales. There may well be an election soon so labour needs to maximise its chances of a win, best way to do that is to give the tories 'enough rope' with brexit and concentrate on domestic issues.

It may frustrate us 'remainers' but its a solid tactic.

As for leonard he has a long way to go before he makes labour electable up here, the party is a complete shambles north of the border.

[spireitematt]

Labours problem is that they have nowhere to go on brexit, they can't out brexit the tories, going brexit lite is risky with the north and midland seats that voted out and going full on anti brexit would likely destroy them electorally - it resulted in no increase in support for the lib dems on that platform at the election. So i understand corbyns dilemna, scotland is a totally different set of circumstances to england and wales. There may well be an election soon so labour needs to maximise its chances of a win, best way to do that is to give the tories 'enough rope' with brexit and concentrate on domestic issues.

It may frustrate us 'remainers' but its a solid tactic.

As for leonard he has a long way to go before he makes labour electable up here, the party is a complete shambles north of the border.

Labour are between a rock and a hard place because if they back Brexit they will lose remain voters at the next election especially the younger voters who want to remain and if they decide to oppose Brexit then they will lose there core supporters because the core supporters voted for Brexit especially in the North East, North West etc. That's why their sat on the fence but sooner or later they are going to have to get off the fence and choose which side of the fence they want to be on.

The only way Labour will get electable in Scotland again is if the electorate see through the SNP or get annoyed with them but as Scotland is divided between the Yes and No vote then the SNP will always send politicians back to Westminster.

Next election in my opinion is going to be a hung parliament again or a small Tory majority if they change leader before the next election. I think its going to be very rare in the future that we see landslides in elections like they had in the past. The only way Labour will ever win again is if they become less London centric and actually listen to the electorate and what they want but I can't see that changing because Labour has sort of become a party for the young middle classes and been taken over. I am actually contemplating cancelling my membership as the party I joined 8 years ago isn't the party today.

[ritchiebaby]

I feel your pain, matt. A bit like the EEC I supported 45 years ago isn't the same as the EU today!

[spireitematt]

I feel your pain, matt. A bit like the EEC I supported 45 years ago isn't the same as the EU today!

I'm guessing you voted to Leave.

[0762]

But interestingly that Scottish vote to leave has been overwhelmed by an even more solidified remain vote than the previous majority in June 2016. That tells me that even though the EU is by no means perfect, most Scots still regard it as a decent option as opposed to the cataclysmic brexit one! Our cultures are different esp in a historical sense where close Euro links have been forged in Scotland for a long, long time and that difference is clearly exposed again. As that Scottish saying goes: 'Wha's like us'!?

[hibeejim21]

For me 8 years ago the labour party was way more pro EU,pro freedom of movement,neoliberal and london centric than it is now. Corbyn actually campaigns across the UK in a way i never saw milliband or blair do. I never saw them speak in miners clubs in midlothian like corbyn did yesterday.

It seems odd to want to leave labour now,especially as the leadership are getting back to grassroots politics and the majority of their front bench are pretty much ordinary people.

[spireitematt]

For me 8 years ago the labour party was way more pro EU,pro freedom of movement,neoliberal and london centric than it is now. Corbyn actually campaigns across the UK in a way i never saw milliband or blair do. I never saw them speak in miners clubs in midlothian like corbyn did yesterday.

It seems odd to want to leave labour now,especially as the leadership are getting back to grassroots politics and the majority of their front bench are pretty much ordinary people.

Labour was Pro EU and freedom of movement under Blair but I think Kinnock changed Labour's view on Europe after Foot. I feel there are other Labour members and even Labour politicians who are very London centric and don't understand what life is like outside the M25, they say they do but do they really.

Yes the majority of the front bench are ordinary and seem more down to earth and its great Corbyn is going around the country giving speeches but there are other issues in the party as well Hibeejim21 among members which is why people are leaving as well.

Also just because you support a political party it doesn't mean you always agree with everything they say or do. You will probably disagree with things the SNP say or do.

[0762]

Every government, and political party, makes mistakes now n again and, in the case of the SNP, there have been some contentions but it has been consistently stated the party/government embraces the best interests of the Scottish people and I certainly believe that political ethos to be genuine in comparison with any unionist party that will always have an unhealthy, restrictive link/association with their unionist counterparts in Westminster. Lessons were learnt by thousands n thousands of well-informed Scottish voters in Scot referendum year 2014 when the shameless behaviour of allied unionist parties and their shit media was nothing short of a disgrace and these people, incl that quisling, Gordon Brown, should have been ignored by a lot more Scots than was the case! Then similar shit was peddled down south during the EU referendum of 2016!
Meanwhile I notice Boris Johnson trying to pull support for unity re an EU exit! Remember this man is one of the serial brexit 'decepticons' who we endured during that ridiculous hustings period that led up to the brexit fiasco - absolutely no substance attached to Johnson's speech and his reference to 'the will of the people' line used by the 'usual suspects' in a 'stuck' position, is absolutely irritating again!!! The main reason for his speech was because of the huge disparity of opinion on brexit within his own party and government and someone should suggest that he should refer to the 'real substance' that has been published in the UK gov and Scottish gov economic assessments/forecasts that I notice he made no reference to whatsoever - no surprise there but I'll bet many of his Tory opponents of brexit are well aware of the various damning reports from independent assessors and others!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43045553

[hibeejim21]

Bunter boris's speech was a cracker eh ? What an arsehole. Our cultural relevance in europe reduced to cheapo flights to stag dos.

Junker repeated very categorically today that the concept of Europe becoming a federal superstate was 'complete nonsense', As is all the pish spouted about the ECJ and 350 million for the NHS. The economic arguments have been shown to be bollocks too....turkey joining the EU ? Absolute lies. Fruit farmers in the UK relocating their businesses to china because their produce is rotting in the fields because eastern europeans think the british are xenophobic arseholes and won't come here to pick them.

Boris has lied through his teeth every step of the way on brexit. Conned the poor and disillusioned 100%, because its them who will pay for this. Not a semblance of an apology or a plan ahead. Nothing.... I don't want your blue passport or US chlorinated chicken,i'd rather stay part of europe thank you very much rather than be in some asian style,deregulated, offshore tax haven dump.

Its all been a massive stitch up on behalf of right wing tories and their backers. Its going to ruin the tory party on a more wider basis into the bargain.....thats about the only benefit of this farce.