[0762]

'Easy as pie' eh to suddenly govern a region where a huge part of the population and many officials do not want anything to do with Spain! Also Rajoy 'preaching for tolerance' and his deputy PM 'preaching for dialogue' whilst condemning Puigdemont!!!??? 'Taking the piss' comes to mind and typical right-wing behaviour without any sincerity or purpose to this form of shit dialogue!
BREAKING NEWS - THE CATALANS DECLARE INDEPENDENCE AND NO F###### WONDER!!! Now the 'fun' begins and I hope they attach themselves to the UN Charter for self-determination that covers all people in this position!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116

[St Charles Owl]

The first real sign of a sizable opposition to independence as the whole saga escalates day by day.  Not sure the EU will be too pleased about the asylum offer from Belgium against another of its members!!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41794087

[ritchiebaby]

Just a wee thought on this thread. Despite sizeable opposition by Catalonians to the announced breakaway of Catalonia from Spain, there has been little or no mention of a divided nation/population, and similar remarks. I only hope that divisions don't only occur when "your side" is losing.

Every country is divided, some more than others.

[St Charles Owl]

I think something the EU said this week is very telling in the future of that community. There are currently 27 countries in the EU and they stated that the last thing they wanted was to see was that number rise significantly through countries breaking apart as we are seeing in Spain. The EU is already a logistical and bureaucratic nightmare at times and if the number of countries rose to the 42 they quoted then it would become more and more difficult to attain agreement between all those nations.

[0762]

Aye! There is certainly a political agenda re this common response from most EU member states and it was good to see the big media agencies, including the bbc, being reminded to start providing the true facts re the more recent black history between Catalans and the Franco/Spanish govt from the late 1930s onwards. Sad to see this practise but no surprise - deja vu re this kinda bbc behaviour - the 'impartial' bbc huhhhh! Also good to see Finland 'breaking the mould' and a parliamentary vote being called to recognise an independent Catalonia.

[St Charles Owl]

The EU will always publicly back their member state in any internal independence situation. Personally until there is an accurate and trustworthy referendum then I don't see how any country could back their independence!! We still have no idea which way a vote would go if it was to be held, polls suggesting both a yes or no win or a result that is too tight to call, so at some point the referendum needs to be held without any interference and let the people have their say, but both sides will need to agree to this and I'm not sure we are at that point yet.

[0762]

I've previously commented that the Spanish govt/Rajoy will never concede to holding a formal referendum for obvious reasons and that is the whole crux of this debate re defining democracy and the democratic right of a certain region's people to vote in a referendum. That demand covers the voting population of Catalonia, pro-independence and pro-Spain - the consensus is to have the vote and not be denied it by this intransigent 'external power'. Otherwise human nature prevails and the angst will only fester and get worse with the kinda politics that Rajoy is applying. The other thing that I find interesting is the fact that in many Euro countries the people have a contrary view re the plight of the Catalans compared to this 'political line' taken by their governments - it's curious and I'd call it 'taking sides' against a clear aggressor!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41802900
Sedition???????? This is not pragmatic politics and it reeks of the remnants of General Franco still infesting parts of the current Spanish govt. Still looking for an extreme 'response' from an independence movement that has admirably followed a peaceful line throughout the campaign to be given the right to vote for self-determination. IMO the EU hierarchy should be getting involved on behalf of the EU citizens who reside in Catalonia and watching their rights being breached!!!

[Devongone]

A quick look at the proliferation of independence movements and areas seeking autonomous status across Europe gives you some insight into the forces lining up against Catalan independence. In Spain the Balearic Islands, those seeking a Kingdom of Valencia and the Aran Valley all seek an independence aligned to Catalonia. Additionally Andalusia, Aragon, Asturia, the Canary Islands, Cantabria, Castile, Galicia, Leonese Country, Extramadura, and Murcia all have their own independence movements. And then there is the Basque Country which seeks a separate state, which would involve part of France too. So Spain has no option but to fight off the Catalonians, and equally it has to be a lie to portray the rest of Spain as uniting to demonstrate against Catalan independence, when the desire to secede is also so widespread.

Aside from the Basques, France has independence movements in Brittany, Corsica, Sovoy, Occitania and Provence AND of course it has Northern Catalonia, which aims to be part of Catalonia ........ So France is NOT going to be a friend of independence movements any time soon either.

Equally Germany has a strong movement for an independent Bavarian state and some form of autonomous status is sought by East Frisia, Franconia, Lusatia and Schleswig-Holstein. Italy is a real hotbed of movements seeking to undo unification. Even little buttery Denmark has three or four such movements of its own. Belgium has Walloons and the Flemish for a start favouring break-up and they aren't the only ones. Holland has a similar scenario.

So, the European Union can only turn itself into a major block against independence movements, which is why, even if Brexit happens, and Scotland somehow achieves independence, it is going to be looking towards a union of countries too riven by their own internal divisions ever to dare encouraging such movements by welcoming Scotland any time soon (even to punish Britain!). And whilst Catalonia can expect widespread support from secessionist movements across Europe it'll find no official support across the entire continent. Even Albania has an area wishing to break away FFS.

[0762]

Good comments re the 'political and economic reasoning' of the EU and most of its member states but the EU is still 'defending the indefensible'TBF! The position of EU President Tusk and his EU counterparts, Juncker and Verhofstadt, is untenable. Verhofstadt leads the Alliance for Liberals and Democrats for Europe Group - that's a 'laugh'! The EU should be mindful of its treaties promoting democracy and democratic rights of its citizens and yet it focuses on the economic rather than the human rights and interests of the Catalan people.This trio backing Rajoy and his repressive methods in the way they are doing it really is 'defending the indefensible'. Meanwhile during yesterday's big unionist demonstration in Barcelona pro Franco fascist chanting and fascist/natsi salutes coming from factions within these pro union attendances!!!!?? And consequent sporadic violence with the Police and intimidation of the local Police. As usual, these people finally show up in numbers 'out of nowhere'! In Scotland, it was the same scenario although a smaller presence, at the tail end of the referendum 2014 conclusion. These people were never seen during the hustings fortnight when I was in Barcelona on vacation!!! And ironically the violence is attached to them and the Spanish govt who they support!!! It's well seen that the shit extreme influence of General Franco is still evident within Spanish society/people and, as mentioned in the previous thread, why other regions of Spain wanna separate away from these c#### for similar reasons!!
Lastly, why are these following obvious questions not being asked by the condoning people in the international community: 1. I'm a fan of constitutions BUT is this relative 40 year constitution 'fit for purpose' in the 21st century? 2. Does it uphold democracy? 3. Has it turned into an instrument of national oppression?
Nuff said!

[Devongone]

I'm basically for self-determination. If Scottish people want independence I'm all for it. But independence does come at a price and an apparent desire to join the EU suggests an unwillingness to pay that price. Some of Scotland wants its shortbread and to eat it too. There is only one country within the EU with anything approaching self-determination and a lot of its people are unhappy about supporting unsuccessful confederates.

The European Union is moving in the opposite direction to Catalunya yet like the Scots, the Catalans want to remain inside it. For that reason alone I fear they are doomed to fail, despite their creative opposition to an unpleasant government, which is finding some even more unpleasant friends.