[0762]

As Spanish troop ships arrive to be moored outside Barcelona Harbour (and certain govt officials arrested+removal of ballot boxes and voting papers), the will of the Catalans and their govt prevails to have this vote regardless! From a Scottish perspective, I can empathise with the sentiments of millions of pro indy Catalans and, having recently sampled the passion and tremendous emotion 'for the cause' on the streets of Barcelona at huge pro indy rallies, I can only say GOOD LUCK, MOLTA SORT! 1 October looms closer and history beckons as the suppressed opinion polls actually predict a 'Si victory for democracy' and then the fun begins.

[St Charles Owl]

With everything surrounding the build up to this, I think this will be a glorified opinion poll at best. Its not an official referendum, its got contested legality and those who would likely vote against independence will not turn out due to the validity of the whole thing. I understand the symbolism and protest like nature of this but if independence is to be gained or even properly attempted, for me this is not the way to do it!! Lets just hope this doesn't turn violent, so far there seems no appetite for that and long may that continue.

[0762]

I'll correct you on one thing re the outcome of this 'opinion poll' as you put it. If the referendum result is a yes vote, the Catalonian govt/parliament will move to declare a state of independence within 48 hours of a victorious vote for self-determination. Lets hope they are not forced to train their functional artillery guns at the front of Montjuic Castle on the naval threat o/s Barcelona Harbour/Barceloneta.

[St Charles Owl]

This process will only produce a yes vote, most no supporters will not turn out to vote and there has been no campaigning at all. Its a fake referendum. It is not recognized by the law in Spain, nor by the Government or the constitution, it won't be recognized by the EU nor the wider international community. It will make a point, and it will likely push the debate further forward, but this is not a fully backed and properly organized and debated referendum. A lot of people will have no where to vote even if they wanted to, there will be no official oversight of the integrity of the voting like we see in all elections and with a police presence actively stopping people from voting the result cannot be validated!!

I have no problem with them having self determination, but this is not the way to do it!!

[0762]

You're conveniently missing out the role of the Spanish govt in placing many of the restrictions/criticisms that you mention in a process of oppression. The current Spanish govt is an oppressive regime that even enforces legal prosecutions against the likes of open critics of the Spanish royal family. Hence this whole move towards self-determination by the Catalans responds to a 'multitude of sins', economic and otherwise, committed by the Spanish govt for a good number of years. I actually question the authenticity of Spain being a true member of the EU anyway as the Spanish govt continues to violate the set doctrines of the EU for all members. Also the proposed referendum was deemed legal under the rules set in law within the law courts of Catalonia. IMO no different from here in the UK when Scottish law differs from English law in many aspects that our laws are set out. One element of debate in law is the constitutional one which tends to suit a superior nation that wants to hold some kinda stranglehold on a lesser affiliate - a constitutional, undemocratic joke that should be amended in law anyway. Lastly, note that an international delegation of parliamentarians arrived in Barcelona to observe the referendum at the invitation of the Public Diplomacy Council of Catalonia. A total of 33 representatives from 17 countries, incl Scotland. Some of this group have expressed concern re the violation of civil rights in Catalonia and wanted the vote to take place with no problems/hindrance.
This is the latest confrontation and negative activities of the Spanish govt and it's army of 'enforcers' on an autonomous region of Spain:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41452174

Catalonia's Vice President briefly said if Spanish Police prevented polling stations from opening, people called to vote at those sites would still be able to vote although he would not disclose how or where but that process was in place with mandatory official vetting. A recent sample of 3300 voters took in 2 scenarios - one with a boycott and a second one without. This showed that 62% of the voting population would vote in spite of a boycott and yes would win with an 83% yes vote. However, in the second scenario the no vote would rise from 16% to 32% but the yes vote was still solid at 66% on a 77% turnout with 23% abstaining.

[St Charles Owl]

I didn't miss the role of the Spanish govt, its their job to run the country!! Catalonia is at this stage not an independent country, it is part of Spain with some devolved powers and therefore the Spanish government have a say in what goes on there whether they like it or not. As I said though, I am happy for them to do as they please but they should not be allowed to ignore democracy and the processes required to have a referendum, just as Scotland did. Without this being ratifiable or recognized internationally as a democratic process and result, then it just becomes anarchy and potentially civil war. Polls don't matter, 2016 told us that, there has been no campaign nor debate on the subject, there is severe doubt over people's ability to vote and there is intimidation by those who don't vote and those who do!!!

But its here now, so lets see what happens and comes of this.

[0762]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461032

Anarchy and civil war???? Waken up mate and decide who is the real perpetrator and why wars develop in situations where anarchic governments can't get their heads around the democratic right of the people and government of an autonomous region, or similar, to vote on their own self-determination!! Democratic process my erse when one has an intransigent government that will never concede to the inevitable!!! And we all thought the age of General Franco was over in Spain!!! Apparently not eh!!! Rant over!!

[hibeejim21]

It's one thing opposing independence for Catalonia, another thing entirely defending what happened today.

Shameful scenes the day,madrid has made a complete xxxx of it.

[St Charles Owl]

Yes, today was a sad day for Catalonia, Spain and for democracy. This one isn't going to go away either, this one will need some mediation I think going forward.

[0762]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41463719

And a huge 'symbolic' Yes/Si result prevails for self-determination in Catalonia - WOWWWW, a 90% yes vote with a 42.5% turnout no thanks to the oppressive efforts of the Spanish govt against the Catalans and their government officials. Extrapolation of this result up to a healthy turnout still reveals it would be a decent yes for indy! The Spanish govt can't suppress that fact either! Now the fun begins!