[0762]

Now that would be something if they could 'pull it off' and give the 'block vote' of British citizens another chance to 'turn over' this surprise Brexit vote and do it unanimously!!

[0762]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38641208

And Cruella de Ville unsurprisingly confirms that it looks like a 'hard brexit' is gonna be her negotiating 'game plan' after all. IMO an economic 'meltdown' for our 'disunited' Kingdom and our current fiscal deficit will be even greater when we approach the eventual formal EU exit. No single market at all means we dispense with the significant market revenue intake and replace with nothing close to that kinda maximised capital gain!! IMO it'll soon be time to call a Scot Indy referendum again and start presenting the case that the Union is a total f### up that just confirms we should've 'bit the bullet' and gone our own separate way and, by the way, we would've also still been trading with our UK neighbours anyway contrary to all the scaremongering shit that was bandied about by the '3 x Union touting amigos' and other shameless b####### in 2014, Scot referendum year!

[hibeejim21]

She's delusional. Utterly delusional. We are not in a good position at all.

She has already been told there can be no cherry picking by numerous EU leaders but chose to ignore them. Our trade to the EU outnumbers what is coming the other way remember? 20% wiped off the pound is starting to bite and inflation and prices are creeping up. meanwhile our nhs and social services are falling by the wayside.

I still think the tories knew that between rampant austerity and a right wing clique in their party/press that they need to cling on to power that this was a likely event. The result will see us as two britains.

The south and london will end up as a singapore style tax haven playground for russian oligarchs,saudi princes and dictators while the over polluted north will end up full of zero contract workhouses,farms and care homes.

A population of largely unemployed youth and a rump of retirees still getting by on their pensions who voted for this stupidity will be fine till they either die or require medical treatment at the U.S. owned health care facility which used to be the local NHS hospital.

Still at least we kept those immigrants out....Not. At least we took back control...Not.

I won't be forgiving some of the people involved in this.

[ritchiebaby]

Unlike some, I'm prepared to give her a chance to negotiate a deal over the next 2 or 3 years. Perhaps she is posturing, but no more than the numerous EU leaders.

The pound has gained value today and I'd have thought that would have pleased the doom merchants. It seems interest rates are set to rise and that will probably help the pound as well.

Thankfully Scotland voted to remain in the UK in 2014, otherwise we would be suffering a deficit due to the falling price of oil in the past 2 years. The NHS in Scotland isn't doing well and neither is Social Care. Nor the Fire Service, nor Police Scotland, nor Education.

As far as immigration and control are concerned, I'd remind everyone that we are still members of the EU for at least 2 years and as such won't be able to take any action on these fronts for that time.

I'm a retiree on an adequate pension thanks to a bit of foresight and investment under both Tory and Labour governments. Unfortunately these governments made a right pig's ear of spending my PAYE and we found ourselves in a bit of a mess as a member of the EU, so I voted to leave the EU - no forgiveness required.

As a final thought, I always thought that London/ South versus the North divide has been as you describe for years, although on an unofficial basis.

[hibeejim21]

What exactly is going to get better out of the EU? I keep asking this but no one can tell me.

I guess its a matter of now making the best of trying to agree some mutually beneficial relationship with the rest of europe i guess but thats going to be a very rocky road with the EU holding all the best cards.

It looks to me like the Tories want to make it a Brexit for the super wealthy where the UK becomes a Low Tax Haven with deregulated low wage economy. As you point out we are well down that path already via austerity and a type of globalised economy that doesn't tax and regulate those who profit from it.

I'll be the first to admit i was wrong if this 'global britain' takes off. But I'm pretty sure it won't.

Oh and the pound is still 18% less than it was on 23/6/16 - thats a fact not being a doom merchant.

[0762]

I must strongly add that we definitely have the wrong govt/political party in place and that really concerns me as well. You've alluded to it - contrary to the verbal shit that they utter, these people embrace the needs of their own class/type of people who support them in different ways and it's not a collective stance and never will be!! I'd say that's one of the reasons why I favour Scottish Indy although I must emphasise I've never held a strong affiliation to the SNP. However a lotta stuff that Nicola Sturgeon has said re Brexit is wise, pragmatic and to the point 'from the off'. She's not perfect but she's far superior to some of the shameless shit heids who riddle British politics! As for 'picking holes' in Scot govt policies and failed ventures? These are austere times and have been for quite a while!!!!! Money is tight and the public purse has been restricted for years!!! Do remember we didn't even get Devomax after 2014 after all the reassuring shit/promises uttered by shameless allied Unionist politicians!! Hence annual expenditure was always gonna be juggled about - governance of the country is difficult under said circumstances - with respect, do appreciate that fact please! Also our oil revenue was always just a bonus and represented about 12% of GDP! Managing our country was key to it being a successful venture and that included who we trade with, stimulating inward investment, setting our tax regime oroperly (one example question - How many reasonably well off to rich pensioners are there in the UK, let alone Scotland, and why are governments politically frightened to glean money from this group of people while others in the country are struggling????). Also tax avoidance anyone??? Why do the Tories not recover those billions of quid???? You and I know exactly why that is the case! Disgraceful politics! This is just a 'small flavour' of how to run our country for all our people, not for certain people within our small population, and it's all linked to an economic strategy called 'the spread of collective wealth'!!

[ritchiebaby]

0762 and hibeejim21 - you look at things from a different angle to me and will have different opinions. I agree with much of what you say, especially with regard to the failure of successive governments to stem the divide between rich and poor and also north and south. I generally have no faith in the ability or intent of politicians to make much difference.

Re taxation, the UK needs a drastic overhaul of our taxation system so that companies and individuals are taxed on their UK sales/income with no "creative accounting" to reduce their liabilities. And tax avoidance is not exclusive to the rich - only last week while loading my car in a city shopping car park, a white van driver parked beside me and offered to sell me a large screen TV. Many tradesmen gladly do cash jobs to avoid being taxed - not on the same scale as the rich perhaps, but still tax avoidance. "Mony a mickle maks a muckle".

I don't profess to have the answers, but always hope that enough money is found to sufficiently subsidise education, the NHS and law and order to benefit the general population. To me, leaving the EU (and there's still an "if" about that - I don't trust politicians to apply the will of the people) gives the UK a chance to change the existing system for the better. Only time will tell.

[0762]

I'd just add that UK politicians lost any kinda remaining public respect after the original 'cash for questions' scandal and non declaration of illegitimate expense claims! We discovered that there are lotsa these selfish and shameless ######## who infest the houses of parliament with their presence!!! It's a disgrace and it's one of the factors (not the only one!) that explains why our country is so poorly governed! IMO there are certainly currently no 'heavyweight' politicians any more!

[Devongone]

Jim asks what will be better outside the EU, and the easiest answer is the ability to embrace and react to CHANGE.

Out of admirable principles the EU has unfortunately created a massive bureaucracy. Its Parliament is little more than a rubber-stamping operation for self-perpetuating, self-important and sometimes corrupt officialdom. In its relations with the outside world it is permanently hamstrung by attempts to square the vicious circle of negotiating with one voice and simultaneously representing and upholding the interests of even the smallest minority - hence the Walloons alone were able to delay a trade deal with Canada for years, despite 27 other countries and most of Belgium being in favour it.

Every nodding-dog economist and remoaner will tell you business needs certainty. This is simply self-serving bollocks. Certainty leads to stagnation, it's the Sargasso Sea. Uncertainty is the driving force of capitalism. Certainty is the prospectus of a command economy. Capitalism is about the identification and management of risk. It is about turning risk into opportunity.

Rapidly growing business organisations will almost always have flatter organisational structures to enable quick decision-making. As they grow older businesses tend to layer-up, they become bureaucratic, develop too many rules, and begin to stultify and die. That's where the EU is going; the world's speeding up and it's slowing down. It looks like Jean-Claude Juncker; nice face, touchy-feely, but far too baggy, great for a glass of wine by the fire, but don't put him in your Olympic 400 squad or anywhere near shorts (unless they're liquid).

An organisation that tells you it will take you years to leave it is clearly unable to adapt to change. In a world in which even the climate is changing the ability to adapt to and seize the opportunities provided by change is going to be indispensable.

And because it knows it can't adapt to the future, cannot embrace change the only argument the EU produced before the referendum is still being repeated. Be afraid. (Give me the command economy and a socialist state I've always wanted and I'll reconsider the EU, but we're lumbered with a capitalism, where even the terms used send a message - the EU is a trading BLOCK!)

[0762]

I'd temper these anti EU comments, some of which I concur with, with a comment that it's far better to apply change from within the huge market place that is the European Union and a huge generator of wealth for the British economy rather than become an 'outside trader'. I'd argue that it's the British system of failed governance that was always the prob and we have a current PM who exacerbated the immigration prob 'under her watch' as Home Secretary - a huge factor in Brexit ever happening!!!! I agree the EU hierarchical bureaucratic structure is by no means perfect but it's collective strength is a huge advantage. We should be remaining within the EU and working towards improving our Euro trade as well as our world trade - that's something Germany has been practising for years! I'd apply the same warning retrospectively - be afraid if/when we leave the EU in a hard brexit/Little England isolationist approach to satisfying a split vote result in last July's referendum! IMO that will be the biggest misrepresentation of the needs of the British population in living memory - an absolute travesty if these Tory clowns 'push through'with this shit!!