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Chelsea Manning reprieved - Obama right or wrong? - 0762 - 18-01-2017
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38667163
The commuting of Manning's prison sentence is prob Obama's last notable act and it's a curious one. Many protagonists would argue that her revelations were a 'public service', an enlightenment to many people worldwide re the secret, clandestine activities of the USA but she did indeed violate the official secrets act - a moral dilemma and she reached for the 'moral high ground'. I suspect that the outgoing US President prob viewed her prison sentence as extreme. Coupled with her health probs, he decided to initiate an act of compassion. Was he right or wrong? IMO it's a subjective issue and it depends on which side of the moral high ground you wanna favour!
RE: Chelsea Manning reprieved - Obama right or wrong? - St Charles Owl - 18-01-2017
0762, like you I am sat on the fence a bit about this one. I do think anyone who leaks classified documents should be punished for doing so. The thing about this one is the length of the sentence that was handed down, it seems excessive compared to others who have been judged "traitors" for similar actions, so having served 7 years is probably enough and its worth remembering this is not a pardon or removal of a guilty conviction, its a reduction in sentence. Now had she released this material directly to a foreign government I think she would have been left to rot in jail, and probably rightly so!!
Of course the Republicans are up in arms over this and say it undermines the deterent to others doing this but as the article says their new Commander in Chief has himself publicly praised Wikileaks for releasing hacked classified documents when they pertained to Clinton or the Democrats!! They can't have it both ways and I wonder if this is one of the reasons why Obama did this.
RE: Chelsea Manning reprieved - Obama right or wrong? - hibeejim21 - 19-01-2017
It was one last middle finger in trumps direction.
RE: Chelsea Manning reprieved - Obama right or wrong? - Devongone - 19-01-2017
When a state acts in a malign way we seem to rely on the extraordinarily brave, the very foolish and the troubled to step forward and risk everything. Chelsea Manning might well fall into all three categories. Her sentence like much of the USA's justice system was malicious. Only by being black could she have fared worse. Her treatment prior to trial was absolutely unforgiveable and her sentence should have been commuted on those grounds alone.
Obama is basically a good man. BUT releasing Chelsea Manning is no more than a sop to his own conscience and that of like-minded liberals; a guttering candle in the heart of a darkness he's left unpenetrated in a penal, gun-toting society. Waterboarding wasn't an aberration; keeping Chelsea Manning naked in a bare call for weeks on end without sleep wasn't an aberration. Guantanamo Bay and mining Nicaragua's harbours weren't aberrations, these things become permissible when good people acquiesce.
I've loved every visit I've made to America, but a country in which thousands have already died this year in gun violence, yes that many, has huge issues to address, and it shouldn't have to rely on some fragile bird of a boy passing on information he couldn't possibly encompass to point out that there are other roads to tread. It won't tread them under Trump so I'm sure Obama was also providing a middle-finger.
RE: Chelsea Manning reprieved - Obama right or wrong? - 0762 - 19-01-2017
Good comments Devongone re the abuse of human rights within the American system of penal law and governance. I'm guessing you've flicked through the huge list of contraventions that Amnesty International has listed against the clandestine activities of the USA for decades. As bad as, if not worse than, some of the most oppressive S American regimes in living memory and that says it all! Couple that description with the inherent racism, some of it institutional, and we have a 'lethal cocktail' of human rights violations that are unsurpassed and certainly not challenged enough to 'clean up their act' by other western governments. I see the upcoming Trump 'era' as another phase of degradation in this regard and that opinion is solely based on the man's brutal disregard for people he dislikes and I wonder if it also applies to life itself as he continues to age beyond 70 while his vanity tries to 'keep up' with this process.
RE: Chelsea Manning reprieved - Obama right or wrong? - St Charles Owl - 19-01-2017
(19-01-2017, 14:06)0762 Wrote: Good comments Devongone re the abuse of human rights within the American system of penal law and governance. I'm guessing you've flicked through the huge list of contraventions that Amnesty International has listed against the clandestine activities of the USA for decades. As bad as, if not worse than, some of the most oppressive S American regimes in living memory and that says it all! Couple that description with the inherent racism, some of it institutional, and we have a 'lethal cocktail' of human rights violations that are unsurpassed and certainly not challenged enough to 'clean up their act' by other western governments. I see the upcoming Trump 'era' as another phase of degradation in this regard and that opinion is solely based on the man's brutal disregard for people he dislikes and I wonder if it also applies to life itself as he continues to age beyond 70 while his vanity tries to 'keep up' with this process.
Doesn't matter much that its Trump as president, what will cause us to see a few steps backwards on a variety of issues is the total control the Republicans now have in Washington. The progress that has been made with regards to minorities, LGBT, women's rights, healthcare for the poor etc are likely to be challenged over this coming term and there isn't going to be a lot the Democrats can do about it. Maybe the only saving grace for some of these issues is that it would likely take longer than 4 years to actually change laws and rights by which time hopefully the electorate will have woken up!!!
Obviously also with Republicans in charge some topics that need addressing will also simply go away. Gun control, religious intolerance, internet privacy and the desperate state of black inner cities will simply not be on the agenda at all, in fact some of the laws that have been put in place may just be swept away, particularly with regards to gun control!! There is already talk of all states being forced to allow conceal and carry permits from other states being permissible in states that do not allow conceal and carry, that totally fits into the right wing Republican thinking that the best way to solve gun crime is to arm everyone!!!!
RE: Chelsea Manning reprieved - Obama right or wrong? - hibeejim21 - 19-01-2017
Obamas approval record is pretty high for a leaving president. Do you think he might have won again if allowed to stand for a third term SCO?
RE: Chelsea Manning reprieved - Obama right or wrong? - St Charles Owl - 19-01-2017
(19-01-2017, 20:32)hibeejim21 Wrote: Obamas approval record is pretty high for a leaving president. Do you think he might have won again if allowed to stand for a third term SCO?
I have absolutely no doubt what so ever that he would have won!!!! In fact I think it would have been no contest at all. As I have said previously, if the Democrats had chosen a "clean" candidate then they would have won this election easily. Like I have just said in the EU thread, Trump was allowed to run the debate because he had some good ammunition to use against Clinton, his ammunition against the Democrats as a whole was pretty low, but he had a full arsenal on Clinton because of the shady things she had done.
RE: Chelsea Manning reprieved - Obama right or wrong? - 0762 - 19-01-2017
The end result is the country you live in is gonna end up in an even worse situation than before SCO with very few political visionaries like Obama being present any more. It's a sad conclusion for a country that should be moving in the opposite direction TBF! There is so much work to do to improve and evolve American values and actions for the better but Trump is not the man to do it and as you say: power hungry selfish Republicans are not gonna do it either! The biggest loser will be the country itself and minority groups will be in a similar weak position. Very sad to see Obama's tenure not being progressed further in a pragmatic way and by a more apt leader but fate has decreed it otherwise!
RE: Chelsea Manning reprieved - Obama right or wrong? - St Charles Owl - 19-01-2017
This country will be fine I believe, it will adapt and it will continue to evolve.