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RE: Nicola Sturgeon finally begins the process of separation! - St Charles Owl - 23-11-2022
(23-11-2022, 13:48)0762 Wrote: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-63701835
As expected, the Supreme Court ruling by 8 x English judges, 2 x Scot judges, 2 x Welsh judges, 2 x Irish judges, rules against the democratic right of a Scot govt and Scot people to hold a referendum!!!So much for this voluntary Union that has been preached by all and sundry who are opposed to Scot self-determination. Nicola respecting the decision of the court and mass demos expected tonight all over Scotland. Ultimately, only politicians can settle this issue once and for all as it aint gonna go away. IN FACT, IT'S GONNA CAUSE AN ALMIGHTY POLITICAL STOOSHIE!!
To be fair, this ruling is just an interpretation of where the law stands on the mechanism for who is able to call to hold a referendum. As you say its ultimately up to the politicians to change that law if you want the Scottish Government to be the ones who decide if there is to be a referendum. SNP MP said it best for me when he points out that the Supreme Court doesn't make the laws it just interprets them and as he added what can be done to change this and how do you move forward.
I think Sturgeon is purely playing politics with this one. Her advisors will have told her this would be the outcome but for her is suits her narrative that its all Westminster's fault. She will lead the party in the next election on the back of "It's not my fault" and then make the next election a de facto referendum. That could be a risky move for her even if she wins the election because even at the last election the SNP only got 45% of the vote but the FTTP system delivered 81% of the seats. Even if you add in the Greens this leaves over 54% of the population voting for parties who are not for independence at this stage.
On the other hand, if she spins this as London telling Scots what they can and can't do then it could be a vote winner!!
RE: Nicola Sturgeon finally begins the process of separation! - 0762 - 23-11-2022
That's precisely how it's gonna pan out. I attended a huge demo outside the Scot Parliament tonight and the theme of all the articulate speakers at this event is to unify all Scotindy factions and set up a Scottish Independence Convention asap. And a huge emphasis that Westminster and the London govt are telling Scots they own you (or so they think!) - we are a colony of Englandshire and they will take our resources with impunity - something they've been doing for long enough with various listings of financial pickings being plundered by HM Treasury - billions n billions of quid taken from Scotland annually and it will continue with impunity. A huge focus and subsequent anger placed on Lord Reed's summary in trying to define whether Scotland is or is not a colony and presenting it with utter contempt - very noticeable contemptuous narrative re his disregard for Scottish rights. And Nicola commenting his summary was "disappointing"???? It was more than that Nicola!!! The preaching from Unionists previously talking about a voluntary Union finally "blown out of the water" btw. Therefore, IT IS A FORCED UNION, ONE WHERE THERE IS NO IDENTIFIABLE DEMOCRATIC ROUTE FOR THE PEOPLE TO SEEK THEIR OWN SELF-DETERMINATION, WE ARE PRISONERS OF A FORCED UNION (PERCEIVED BY MANY AS UNSUSTAINABLE!) - NOTE THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE ARE SOVEREIGN - NOT SO IN ENGLAND WHERE PARLIAMENT IS SOVEREIGN!! For example, the Scot people have the power to remove a corrupt govt if necessary - not so in England! Lord Reed placing great emphasis on the use of the words re Scotland not being an "oppressed nation" (unlike eg Kosovo) and many people querying what level of oppression merits a change of judicial stance on this issue? Note on the other side of the spectrum, Palestine is an oppressed nation and yet politics and the west don't recognise the people's right to self-determination!!! IMO the whole argument is so full of double standards. Previous quotes mentioned of ex-Tory PMs like John Major recognising Scotland's sovereignty and the people's right to self-determination. Now we are experiencing a forced Union compared with the perception/regard of other reputable politicians incl Thatcher!! Also, many speakers regard The Supreme Court as an illegal court of law under Article 19 of The Treaty of Union 1707 - unrecognised up here; so, questions raised why on earth the Scot govt took this legal route anyway? Finally, The Claim of Right supersedes any such comments by the likes of Lord Reed and blocking action by any Brit govt - it has been constitutionally re-imposed and unchallenged on a number of occasions at Westminster. Many people questioning why it has not been politically activated or when it will be used?
RE: Nicola Sturgeon finally begins the process of separation! - ritchiebaby - 24-11-2022
To be honest, today's verdict doesn't make the slightest difference, as we all knew the answer anyway.
The original Union was voluntary, but only by the Scottish elite against the wishes of the general public. Remind you of recent events? The Scottish economy was in dire straits and needed English gold to rescue it.
I too am "disappointed", mainly because I am unlikely to see an independent Scotland. But it will happen eventually.
RE: Nicola Sturgeon finally begins the process of separation! - 0762 - 24-11-2022
There is a famous English quote from the post period of signing the Treaty of Union 1707 - "...we have catched the Scots and we will never let them go...." Again reflect on current events and the shit that we are now being subjected to as a sovereign country. May I also add there were riots in the streets of Edinburgh at the time of the signing of The Treaty of Union while an English army was stationed just outside Edinburgh to ensure conformity with said agreement. IMO the Scottish Government should immediately rescind the Treaty of Union of the Scottish and English parliaments. This is well within the rights of the Scottish Parliament and the people. It would also be recognised internationally. What is interesting about this ruling is that while upholding the law, the judgement knowingly denies Scotland the expression of its democratic will, instead deferring it to the sovereignty of Westminster. This exposes Westminster as a unitary state and a very compromised democracy for all the world to see. The court didn't see it in its remit to address this consequence. I must concede I'm more disappointed by this judgement than I thought I would be, but it is a political question and not a legal one - so the time has come to be more combative. THE OFTEN-PREACHED VOLUNTARY UNION IS DEAD - IT IS OFFICIAL!!!
RE: Nicola Sturgeon finally begins the process of separation! - hibeejim21 - 25-11-2022
There was more than a hint of anschluss about what happened to scotland back in those days for sure. Sold out by "a parcel of rogues" as Burns put it. But thats a long story.
The current UK gov, Brexit, Bojo and Truss, Sunak, Austerity ...All done with less than 50%, so let's forget that yardstick even matters for a moment.
The scot gov has made its move and got its reaction. Now its up to the UK gov to uphold the union is a free and democratic one. What was it again ? Oh yes "a union of equals"...... If they continue to ignore Scotlands right to self-determination the consequences are firmly with them.
RE: Nicola Sturgeon finally begins the process of separation! - 0762 - 25-11-2022
Now that judgement has been made and is indeed the legal situation, one can certainly say it destroys the traditional claim of generations of Scot Unionist politicians who have always assured Scotland that it is up to Scots alone whether Scotland remains a part of the UK or becomes an indy state. We'll have learned that the generations-long understanding of Scotland's place in the UK is a lie, a convenient fiction peddled by successive British governments who allowed Scotland to believe it is a partner in a voluntary union - just as long as there was never any realistic chance of Scotland putting their assertion to the test and voting for independence. I reckon this "changed position" has not actually "sunk in" to many Scots' heads yet and it is a monumental political change re the constitutional position of Scotland with huge ramifications that will eventually follow once the "dust has settled" amongst the whole population of Scotland.
RE: Nicola Sturgeon finally begins the process of separation! - 0762 - 01-12-2022
And great news a week after that Supreme Court decision - 52% independence support (and looks like it is rising too!!) announced in the latest opinion poll by Redfield & Wilton. Also, the notion coming from down south and from Unionists up here that there is no appetite for a referendum next year "blown away" in another poll and no surprise IMO from a Scottish perspective - the usual unconstitutional bullshit from people who say they represent the views of the Scottish people (they don't!!!!!!!!) with no evidence to back it up. I have a few neighbours around me who were never that interested in politics at all, BUT incensed by what has come out of the Supreme Court ruling and the subsequent sanctimonious remarks uttered by many impudent Unionist/English nationalist morons like the Sec of State for Scotland and others dismissing a request for an immediate amendment to the Scotland Act 1998 thereby allowing a referendum to be called anytime by any sitting Scot Govt. It shows you what happens to people who have never quite realised the undemocratic nature of the Union that we are "shackled" to - NOW THEY KNOW AND THERE WILL BE MANY MORE TO FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF MY NEIGHBOURS!!!
RE: Nicola Sturgeon finally begins the process of separation! - 0762 - 03-12-2022
Even better news revealed in an OP conducted by Omnisis - shows a majority of UK voters actually back Scotland holding a referendum and just shows how "out of step" Westminster political leaders are from the majority of voters who must view this whole undemocratic issue as being totally unacceptable. I can't say I'm greatly surprised by this revelation.
RE: Nicola Sturgeon finally begins the process of separation! - 0762 - 06-12-2022
Keir Starmer, flanked by former-PM Gordon Brown, unveiled Labour’s plans for UK constitutional reform. There is a clue in that first sentence as to why it’s not going to blunt moves towards Scottish independence. This report is about Labour reclaiming its so-called ‘Red Wall’ seats from the Tories and it offers nothing new for Scotland. In fact, it confirms that Labour are committed to Brexit and therefore the power grab that goes with it. One can only add it is vague, dishonest and lacks any full commitment to do anything other than trying to fool a Scottish electorate AGAIN!!! Anything offered from a quisling named Gordon Brown (the VOW liar of 2014!!) attached to it, a shady associate of that sinister Brit govt "Union Unit" must be viewed with great suspicion and scepticism.
RE: Nicola Sturgeon finally begins the process of separation! - 0762 - 07-12-2022
(03-12-2022, 17:26)0762 Wrote: Even better news revealed in an OP conducted by Omnisis - shows a majority of UK voters actually back Scotland holding a referendum and just shows how "out of step" Westminster political leaders are from the majority of voters who must view this whole undemocratic issue as being totally unacceptable. I can't say I'm greatly surprised by this revelation.
And surprise, surprise - the latest OP revealS support for Scotindy has risen to 56% AND IT IS STILL RISING!!! I wonder why??????!!