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RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - Devongone - 08-11-2017
Great line from Dylan, inspired a whole "terrorist" movement .....
In Brexit World we don't know what wind is, whether it even exists, and if it does we seem to be having arguments over suck and blow.
If we say that is a stone, we have standards by which we can agree if it is indeed a stone. If we say that is a lizard, a whole taxonomy is brought into play that will allow us to classify it as a lizard.
If we say this is a recession, all the standards and data by which we assess it are contentious. All of it is debatable. And even when we say yes it does fulfill the criteria of a recession, we still argue over what that means.
Knowing which way the wind was blowing didn't help any (except perhaps 2) economists to predict or even recognise the onset of a worldwide recession.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - spireitematt - 08-11-2017
(08-11-2017, 17:58)Devongone Wrote: Great line from Dylan, inspired a whole "terrorist" movement .....
In Brexit World we don't know what wind is, whether it even exists, and if it does we seem to be having arguments over suck and blow.
If we say that is a stone, we have standards by which we can agree if it is indeed a stone. If we say that is a lizard, a whole taxonomy is brought into play that will allow us to classify it as a lizard.
If we say this is a recession, all the standards and data by which we assess it are contentious. All of it is debatable. And even when we say yes it does fulfill the criteria of a recession, we still argue over what that means.
Knowing which way the wind was blowing didn't help any (except perhaps 2) economists to predict or even recognise the onset of a worldwide recession.
We've not left yet. Also getting fed up of it all already. Deep down no one knows what will happen if we leave the EU its all speculation. The EU don't want Catalonia to be independent and have pretty much said if they go independent they will lose there membership to the EU and won't be allowed to join. Deep down they probably don't want Scotland to be independent for the same reasons because if these smaller countries go independent the EU will keep expanding and expanding and then eventually it will become unsustainable and that will be its own downfall.
Makes you wonder if the EU if its still going will eventually form into a World Union where all countries join and there are no borders or restrictions on freedom of movement. There has always been conspiracy theory's of a New World Order.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - 0762 - 09-11-2017
As the old saying goes, 'Power corrupts'!, and up here in Scotland I can see many people veering towards the prospect of trading through an EFTA membership and doing away with this whole 'dilemma' that was previously flung in the Scot indy movement's face re being in the EU single market or not - remove the criticism altogether when the next indyref2 eventually takes shape!
As for the brexit fiasco, nice to see a second toerag minister, Patel, following Fallon to 'fall on her sword' and a shameless 'brexiteer' to boot!! It's a pity Johnson has not been rightly removed as well and I'd luv to see a whole raft of these shameless brexit b####### removed into a political wilderness but that is wishful thinking on my part. IMO these people, incl Farage, are 'enemies of the state' and lots of folk in this country should wizen up to this fact as well as the fact there is a huge ground swell of public opinion that would overwhelmingly change the political direction and stick with the status quo re UK-EU membership.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 09-11-2017
'Deep down no one knows what will happen if we leave the EU its all speculation'
The port town of Grimsby is seeking Brexit exemption for its seafood industry, despite voting overwhelmingly to leave the European Union in the referendum.
MPs were this week told that seafood should be given special free trade status after Brexit to ensure Grimsby’s industry is not damaged.
Key figures from the industry descended on Westminster to provide the Government with their vision for leaving the EU, outlining how they might tackle several challenges posed by a hard Brexit.
But the industry spokespeople may be hoisted by its own workforce – as the town voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU in the referendum in 2016.
Yet Grimsby's fish processing trade benefits enormously from exports to Europe. The very last thing Grimsby needed was Brexit. Its almost like the fishing industry (the most pro brexit apparently) realise whats going to happen if we leave the EU.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - 0762 - 09-11-2017
Two words to describe that enlightening summary of the 'Grimsby brexit dilemma' - 'absolutely bizarre' and it is steeped in utter ignorance in gleaning the true facts on the subject! How many were fed to the voting population of Grimsby eh?
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - spireitematt - 09-11-2017
(09-11-2017, 01:07)hibeejim21 Wrote: 'Deep down no one knows what will happen if we leave the EU its all speculation'
The port town of Grimsby is seeking Brexit exemption for its seafood industry, despite voting overwhelmingly to leave the European Union in the referendum.
MPs were this week told that seafood should be given special free trade status after Brexit to ensure Grimsby’s industry is not damaged.
Key figures from the industry descended on Westminster to provide the Government with their vision for leaving the EU, outlining how they might tackle several challenges posed by a hard Brexit.
But the industry spokespeople may be hoisted by its own workforce – as the town voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU in the referendum in 2016.
Yet Grimsby's fish processing trade benefits enormously from exports to Europe. The very last thing Grimsby needed was Brexit. Its almost like the fishing industry (the most pro brexit apparently) realise whats going to happen if we leave the EU.
Majority of Grimsby people voted to leave over the fishing rights because European fisherman are allowed to fish in British waters take the fish back to Europe and then sell it to us at high prices. That would be a bit like me taking your food and then selling it back to you at a higher price. Although it must be a smack in the face of British fisherman who voted to Leave to be told by Gove that Danish fisherman will still be allowed to fish in our waters.
The other problem is exporting it to Europe if our fisherman catch fish and we sell it to the rest of Europe it will have to go to Calais and if there is a problem exporting it through customs you could have thousands and thousands of pounds worth of rotting fish going off sat on the port and that will be loss money.
I think the other reason in places like Grimsby, Boston, Lincolnshire etc they voted to leave because they have a lot of migrants living and working in the towns picking the fruit and veg in the fields. The only reason migrants come into pick fruit and veg in the fields is the employers wouldn't be able to pay the Brits a decent living wage so the migrants are happy to do it for less which is wrong because if migrants work in Britain they should be paid on a par with Brits. Also too many Brits look there nose down at jobs like that because I think its the new culture especially with university graduates where they think they should be entitled to work into a job paying £50,000-£60,000 a year and its not like that, sometimes you have to start at the bottom and work your way up.
(09-11-2017, 01:02)0762 Wrote: As the old saying goes, 'Power corrupts'!, and up here in Scotland I can see many people veering towards the prospect of trading through an EFTA membership and doing away with this whole 'dilemma' that was previously flung in the Scot indy movement's face re being in the EU single market or not - remove the criticism altogether when the next indyref2 eventually takes shape!
As for the brexit fiasco, nice to see a second toerag minister, Patel, following Fallon to 'fall on her sword' and a shameless 'brexiteer' to boot!! It's a pity Johnson has not been rightly removed as well and I'd luv to see a whole raft of these shameless brexit b####### removed into a political wilderness but that is wishful thinking on my part. IMO these people, incl Farage, are 'enemies of the state' and lots of folk in this country should wizen up to this fact as well as the fact there is a huge ground swell of public opinion that would overwhelmingly change the political direction and stick with the status quo re UK-EU membership.
After what has happened in the last few days and even last week with the two scandals happening, it's very very hard to see this Government lasting. It would not surprise me if another snap election happens early next year which again would halt Brexit talks and in the end the closer it gets to March 2019 I can see another referendum being called.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - St Charles Owl - 09-11-2017
What in reality would force the Tories into calling for a new election though?? While ever the DUP stick to their pledge to support the Tories, they have the majority in Parliament, so any vote of no confidence would fail if it got to a vote wouldn't it? What other circumstances could lead to a GE against the will of the sitting government?
Its a bit like over here and Trump's potential impeachment. Unless there is direct evidence against him in the Russian investigation, that won't cause impeachment, and while the Republicans hold both chambers I cannot see them doing it, so at this point while its fashionable to call for him to be impeached for a variety of reason, I can't see how the legal ability to do it is there!! Besides, like in the UK, sometimes its better to have the devil you know, I certainly would take Trump over Pence as Trump will continue to struggle to actually achieve anything, whereas the Republican party would get behind Pence and then all hell will be let loose on a variety of things that he would want to change.
In the UK, if there was another election, surely the likely outcome would be a coalition government with no dominant party at all, and that would be a disaster for the UK with Brexit, let alone other issues!! I suppose it will come down to whether that disaster is considered worse than the current one the UK potentially seems to be heading into.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 09-11-2017
' That would be a bit like me taking your food and then selling it back to you at a higher price'
Well it might be if there was such a thing as 'british fish' and if you didn't know anything at all abut quotas and historic catch shares,or acknowledge that british fisherman fish in others waters and sell their fish abroad,get repairs etc overseas. So aye it would be like that if it wasn't totally untrue, your quite right.
'I think the other reason in places like Grimsby, Boston, Lincolnshire etc they voted to leave because they have a lot of migrants living and working in the towns picking the fruit and veg in the fields.'
Now i do agree with you on that score. But its the supermarkets that cut farmers' margins to the bone and if farmers have to pay higher wages then they will either stop producing uneconomic food and hey presto you get price rises. Its heading that way anyway post brexit. Unless you do 'environmentally suspect' food deals with the likes of the USA. And thats coming too.
The alternative to immigration is robotisation. But that requires massive investment and the question now is how to transition from low wage, low productivity to high investment and high productivity. The tories don't seem to have a clue how to do it,corbyn at least is least trying to take the debate forward but i'm not sure he knows how to do it either.
'it's very very hard to see this Government lasting.'
They are a complete joke,but they won't go to the country any time soon. They are in no state for an election even next year and have given the DUP a lot of cash to make sure they can cling on to power.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 09-11-2017
(09-11-2017, 01:02)0762 Wrote: As the old saying goes, 'Power corrupts'!, and up here in Scotland I can see many people veering towards the prospect of trading through an EFTA membership and doing away with this whole 'dilemma' that was previously flung in the Scot indy movement's face re being in the EU single market or not - remove the criticism altogether when the next indyref2 eventually takes shape!
As for the brexit fiasco, nice to see a second toerag minister, Patel, following Fallon to 'fall on her sword' and a shameless 'brexiteer' to boot!! It's a pity Johnson has not been rightly removed as well and I'd luv to see a whole raft of these shameless brexit b####### removed into a political wilderness but that is wishful thinking on my part. IMO these people, incl Farage, are 'enemies of the state' and lots of folk in this country should wizen up to this fact as well as the fact there is a huge ground swell of public opinion that would overwhelmingly change the political direction and stick with the status quo re UK-EU membership.
Incidentally - just what the xxxx was patel playing at ?
She was forming UK foreign policy on her own steam on "holiday",just coincidentally running into mr Netanyahu on the adjacent sunlounger. 14 unauthorised meetings with Israeli officials, a plan to spend uk taxpayers money on the Israeli military.... Specifically with those engaged in an illegal occupation of Golan (that the uk does not recognise and therfore her Syrian refugee excuse wont wash)
What the hell is happening to the UK ?
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - 0762 - 09-11-2017
What is happening Jim? There is a huge lack of 'moral fibre' in government these days and it's been clear for a long time that politics is 'infected' with some of the most shameless b####### that I've ever seen. In the case of Patel, she is clearly a 'background sympathiser' of Israel and it's highly questionable policies and, as previously commented, I'm delighted she's been 'found out'! Unfortunately there are a lot more 'chancers' like her who infect UK society and government and sadly there are very few 'heavyweight', reputable politicians these days!