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+--- Thread: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? (/showthread.php?tid=2762)
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RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 09-01-2019
The heart of the problem here is that Leavers have either willingly or been conned into shackling themselves to the most deceitful, corrupt and self-serving part of england's broken down political system. That isn't our fault.
They will keep the tories in power even when its obvious that they are just defending the tax dodgers, money launderers, foreign press barons and disaster capitalists, who will happily destroy their jobs and walk away laughing all the way to the Cayman Islands.
Sturgeon's right, we really need to aim higher than this.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 09-01-2019
Parliament takes back control....brexiteers go bonkers.....
Go figure.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - 0762 - 09-01-2019
Aye! I notice the Speaker putting all those barracking brexit MPs "in their place" re allowing the Grieve amendment to take place! They clearly didn't want it to happen!
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - Devongone - 10-01-2019
Though I still think we are almost certainly never going to leave, the growing chaos on every side does suggest an apparently accidental no-deal looks like second favourite.
The EU has plenty of experience of running negotiations right to the wire and beyond, but I'm still not convinced they are sufficiently competent to deal with our deliberate and accidental absence of competence.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 10-01-2019
The Tory "strategy" has reeked of No Deal from the off.
I still think you have way, way, WAY too much faith in that shower of xxxx in WM to steer the UK out of big, big trouble. Because that's what a 'no deal' Brexit is.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - ritchiebaby - 10-01-2019
You've got to remember that May, like Cameron, was a Remainer, although she didn't take a greatly active role in the campaign, so we can't really expect her to be positive in her attitude towards leaving. Instead she is raising the spectre of No Deal to bolster support for her EU Deal in Parliament. Our negotiators have never been pro-active in getting a good deal and I suspect deliberately so, in order to weaken our position. There are a lot of soundbites about "taking back control" and "respecting the will of the people", but we all know, on both sides of the argument, that is absolute garbage, taking into consideration the actual events.
All that is likely to happen is that we won't get a Brexit as voted for, but we won't be staying in the EU either. She is only currently surviving because she is relatively secure in the Tory Party and Labour are running scared, because they are no better organised. I would have thought that the SNP could do more regarding a Vote Of No Confidence, but they don't seem to have any confidence in their own abiliity, except moaning all the time. Bizarrely, we are depending on the much-maligned DUP to stand up for the UK and fight against the Tory lily-livered negotiating team (now apparently only Mrs May).
I certainly don't have any confidence in our elected representatives to provide us with any positive outcome. And I still think that everyone is playing a game of chicken, with no-one doing very much except putting off the "Big Decision".
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 10-01-2019
Thats the problem in a nutshell Ritchie - those that voted for Brexit all had different goals, there was no one Brexit voted for. It was an Impossible question to ask the public anyway.
Votes of confidence rarely win -does anyone have record of one winning in the UK?
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - Devongone - 10-01-2019
Do you really think May was a Remainer, or even is a Remainer?
Do you really think Corbyn is a Remainer? He certainly was absolutely anti-EU whilst Tony Benn was alive. But then so was John McDonnell! And I have to admit to being baffled by how many Momentum supporters are Remainers - I know a lot of them being young have never known anything else - but I cannot see how any of the ambitions of a growing EU can contribute to the achievement of socialism. It is hard enough to see how voting Labour and joining the party achieves that goal!
But you're right, everyone had a different vision of what Brexit was and what it might be like, because there'd never been a Frexit or a Grexit, or a Spexit before. I don't see anything particularly abhorrent in asking the peoples' opinion again. But equally you could make all the same arguments about any election we've ever had. No one ever knew what it would mean and they were always lied to and governments either ignored or twisted every promise made .............
Significantly in the past when we've faced important questions like should Capital Punishment be discontinued we haven't asked the people ........ because politicians knew the people would give the answer they thought was wrong and bind them forever. But where that thought leads us I've no idea.
I certainly can't see how the path opens up for us not to leave the EU, but I've great faith that the voice of Capital will eventually outweigh the voice of the people or democracy.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - spireitematt - 10-01-2019
The problem with another referendum or people's vote is the first referendum was so divisive that another referendum could be worse.
The demographics will keep changing as well. You could ask the question in 5 years time and it could be remain and you could ask the question in 10 years time and it could be leave. Young people are very left wing but when they mature and grow up they move towards centre and then to the right.
Everyone voted Remain and Leave for different reasons. Some voted Remain to carry on with the status quo, some voted Remain because they would like to see a Federal Europe and some voted Remain because they are Eurosceptic but believe we could try and reform it from the inside. Some voted Leave because they want to come out of the EU altogether, some voted Leave because of immigration, some voted Leave because they don't want to be part of a Federal Europe.
If the ardent Remainers want to win a 2nd referendum or a "people's vote" instead of looking down on people who voted Leave calling them "racists", "bigots", "didn't know what they were voting for" etc they need to debate them and get them to come round to there way of thinking. This is why Leave and Trump won because instead of debating one another like grown ups they call each other names and abuse each other and this happens on the left and the right.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - ritchiebaby - 10-01-2019
That's the problem with politicians nowadays - they won't come out and say what they will do. They will argue, condemn, harangue, etc, but action? - no way. You should act according to your beliefs and convictions, not just when you think you have a chance of winning.
Mrs May was definitely a Remainer before the referendum and used much the same arguments that her opponents do now.